The real issue with Mormonism: “God is an exalted man”
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. . . . That is the great secret. . . . We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea. . . . [H]e was once a man like us.” ~Joseph Smith
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God” (Psalm 90:1‒2).
“God is not a man” (Num. 23:19; Cf. 1 Sam. 15:29).
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me” (Is. 43:10; Cf. 44:6, 8).
The following words are the most often quoted non-Scriptural teaching of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)—most often quoted, that is, in LDS Church literature itself:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
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These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
These words come from the infamous “King Follett Funeral Discourse,” delivered by Smith on April 7, 1844. They represent the final, developed form of Smith’s theology of God, a theology that underwent massive change between the founding of the Church almost exactly fourteen years earlier. In fact, it is quite plain that Smith did not hold to this radical denial of historic Christian doctrine when he founded the LDS Church in 1830. But sometime in the mid 1830s his views became more and more radical until they reached this final stage shortly before his murder in the Carthage City jail June 27th, 1844. These words, though never canonized, obtained quasi-canonical status by their constant repetition in the teachings of the LDS leadership over the next decades. A quick review of the writings of the LDS leaders all the way up to the modern period will find these words repeated more often than any other teaching of Joseph Smith.
In postmodern times, where fuzziness of thinking and inaccuracy of thought has become the hallmark of so much dialogue, and in particular, in the realm of religion, clear delineation of belief and doctrine has become outdated and unpopular. There is an automatic suspicion of anyone who seeks clarity in confession and doctrine. Such persons must be insecure or, even worse, may be on the road to some kind of fundamentalism—closed-minded individuals holding old-fashioned ideas of universal or objective truths. So with the recent resurgence of Mormonism in the United States, spurred partly by an aggressive, if less-than-doctrinally-oriented advertising campaign on billboards and the Internet, partly by the rise to national prominence of Mormon bishop and returned missionary Willard Mitt Romney, the public discourse on the nature of Mormonism and its teachings has been anything but focused upon accuracy of definition. In fact, the idea that the LDS faith is simply a somewhat odd variant of Christianity has been accepted widely without much fuss or bother. Only those most radically out-of-step with the modern world would actually ask, “But, what is the core of the LDS faith and its teachings? Is it really an expression of Christian faith, or a radical departure from it?”
[product id="1496" align="left" size="small"]Until recent times, dialogues with Mormons did not focus upon establishing that Mormonism had a radically different doctrine of God than Christianity: that was a given. But over the past thirty years a definite move toward ecumenism and “mainstreaming” has been present, and Mormonism now seeks to redefine “Christian” so that it can be stretched to encompass the complete negation of its own most central assertion: that there is one true and eternal God, unchanging, without beginning and without end, unique, without dependence upon prior forces or powers. (Paragraph break)
The deity of Mormonism is, in fact, an exalted man, one who comes in a long line of previously exalted beings, each dependent upon the one before. In fact, as we will see, in Mormonism, God and man are of the same species, with God simply being further advanced in exaltation. In fact, in orthodox Mormon belief, God is not eternal. Matter is eternal; the Mormon God is one god amongst an infinite pantheon of gods existing in unlimited universes. In fact, Mormonism may well be the most polytheistic religion ever devised by man, for while it teaches an increasing number of deities (any worthy Mormon man who is married in the LDS temple and who remains faithful to the end of his life can be exalted as a god, hence increasing the number of gods) it likewise asserts that no number can be placed upon the already existing gods. Modern proponents of this embodiment of Smith’s idea have adopted it primarily out of a recognition that if the number of gods is finite, then we should be able to tract the line back in time to the first god and then ask if he was a man before he became a god, and if so, how did creation come into existence? To avoid this, many Mormons assert an infinite number of deities, just avoiding the “first god” conundrum.
We will look more at the evidence supporting this view of Mormonism below, but it must first be insisted that on any meaningful analysis of religious faith, Mormonism is far, far removed from Christianity. In fact, if one takes as one’s starting point the belief of a religion relating to God’s nature and God’s relationship to the universe, Mormonism is about as far removed on the theological spectrum from Christianity as any religion could be. Whether a religious movement believes in monotheism or polytheism is the first indicator of its nature and categorization, and on this point, Joseph Smith separated his followers for all time from Christianity when he made the statement, quoted above, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” In refuting this idea, Smith made it possible for me accurately and forthrightly to say today: Islamic theology of Allah is significantly closer to Christianity in its affirmation of God’s uniqueness, creatorship, and eternality, than Mormonism ever could be. This is a fact known to anyone who takes seriously the teachings of the General Authorities of the LDS Church.
More from Joseph Smith
The LDS Scriptures contain many affirmations that there is only one true God. These come, primarily, from the period before Smith developed his final theology. In fact, it is clear from the early evidence that Smith began his prophetic career as a monotheist of the confused variety: he attempted to affirm the Trinity, but did so in a modalistic fashion. The original form of the Book of Mormon confuses the Father and the Son, and clearly Smith’s brief attendance in Methodist Sunday School was insufficient to communicate to him a robust understanding of Christian theology on the matter. It was not until Smith claimed to be able to translate some Egyptian papyri that the LDS Church purchased from a traveling showman in the mid 1830s that Smith’s views began to change. Though Mormons today think that as early as 1820 Smith was teaching a “plurality of Gods” as found in his famous First Vision, the reality is that the First Vision took shape many years later, and there is strong evidence of its later fabrication on Smith’s part. This “vision,” which in its earliest forms did not mention two beings, or spoke only of angels, today includes these words:
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
Later portions of the LDS Scriptures reflect the major evolution in Smith’s thinking that took place somewhere in the mid to late 1830s. By April of 1843, we find Smith having moved all the way to an assertion that God the Father is corporeal in nature, that is, that He has a physical body. In a revelation dated April 2, 1843, Smith provides one of the classic LDS formulations concerning God, D&C 130:22:
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
[product id="1497" align="right" size="small"]All of this led to the radical statements Smith made toward the end of his life, such as those contained in the King Follet Discourse, quoted earlier. It seems quite clear that if he had lived, the wild extremes of his swing in theology would have produced such a mass of incoherent material that no one could have ever made any sense out of it, and the Mormon religion as we know it today would, in all likelihood, have never come into existence. At best, it would have remained a small sect, never to gain national prominence. But the murder of Smith ended the development of his theology, and the move of the church to Utah, where it could flourish unhindered under the often times brutal leadership of men like Brigham Young, allowed it to survive.
A scant eleven days before his murder, Smith returned to the topic of the nature of God. His words should be given their due weight:
It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry—“The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen.”
The passage of Scripture to which Smith makes reference is Revelation 1:6 in the King James Version of the Bible, which reads, “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” From this passage Smith will derive the concept of the plurality of Gods. He was confused by the less than clear rendering of the KJV, “unto God and his Father,” as if a second divine person is in view (it is better rendered, “unto God, the Father,” or “God, even the Father”) as Smith himself declares:
I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.
I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?
Few today are impressed by Smith’s exegetical prowess, to be sure, but until recent days Mormons were not overly concerned about such things, as “the Prophet” was beyond criticism on that level. His authority did not come from being an accurate student of the Bible, but from being the direct recipient of divine revelation. In any case, his teachings are clear, and he included in this presentation a disparaging section on the “sectarian god” of Christianity:
Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. “Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me.” “Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou has given me, that they may be one as we are.” All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.
Thus, at the very final days of his life, Joseph Smith Jr. stood unalterably opposed to the Christian proclamation of one true and eternal God, Triune in nature, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
About the Author
Dr. James White James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He is a professor, having taught Greek, Systematic Theology, and various topics in the field of apologetics. He has authored or contributed to more than twenty books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potter's Freedom, and The God Who Justifies. He is an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than one-hundred twenty moderated, public debates around the world with leading proponents of Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism, as well as critics such as Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and John Shelby Spong. In recent years James has debated in such locations as Sydney, Australia, as well as mosques in Toronto and London. He is an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, has been married to Kelli for more than thirty years, and has two children.
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GentleDove, you stated that a Christian man should never vote for a non-Christian candidate. I agree. However, in electoral reality, we only have a choice of electing a WTF or a Mormon in this go around. I’m not happy with it. I’d prefer Ron Paul. The reality is, this time around, we have to choose between Obama or Romney. Any other choice, as heartfelt is it may be, is a vote for Obama. I voted for Romney; not because I think he’s the right choice, but because I think we have a better chance of controlling or limiting his potential damage compared an Obama.second term. Romney could be fettered by a conservative House and Senate. Obama has already shown his disregard for Constitutional strictures; in a second term, he would be beyond our control.
No, I don’t believe that you agree that a Christian man should never vote for a non-Christian candidate.
This is to all you so-called followers of Christ: The Bible warns Christians of wolves in sheep’s clothings (Matthew 7:15) and the tares (from the evil one) sowed among the wheat (Matthew 13:25-40. It also warns Christians of being partakers with the unfruitful works of others (Ephesians 5:1-11). Also, Christians are told not to take their disputes before the ungodly for judgment (in a court of civil law) but instead bring it before the saints. How much more important is it to have a Christian elected in our highest elected office of our great nation. Mitt and Obama are the elite’s establisment’s puppets. The elite (internations bankers, etc.) does not care which one will bring in the New World Government. It is time for all believers to take a stand and stop voting in the lesser of two evils and start voting for Christians who follow God’s Word. Vote for the Constitutional Party where we know that God, not government, gives us our rights as stated in the Declaration of Independence. Who will you serve, God or the god of this world (2Corinthians4:4)?
Steven, I agree with you. However, six days away from the general election is not the time to push people to vote for small and relatively unknown parties. This time around, just hold your nose and push the Romney button (I voted early and have to admit I threw up a little in the back of my mouth, but any other vote would have been a default vote for Obama). Getting enough people on board to support the Constitutional Party (or the Libertarian Party — my personal preference) is a project that will take many years and probably many election cycles. It is definitely worth doing, but it’s a medium-term project, not a short-term project.
David850,
You pragmatists say this every single election cycle. The excuse is always, “I know getting a viable third party off the ground is important, but we can’t do it this time because the consequences of abandoning the GOP and letting the other guy win would be too catastrophic. Wait until the next election, but this is the most importantest election EVAH!”
In 2000: “You have to vote for Bush! We can’t let Al Gore get into the White House, he’ll destroy the country!”
So Bush wins and big government continues under his watch.
2004: “You have to vote for Bush again! We can’t let John Kerry win, he’ll destroy the country!”
So Bush wins and big government continues under his watch.
2008: “You have to vote for John McCain! I know he’s even more liberal than Bush, but we can’t let Obama win, he’ll destroy the country!
So we vote for the leftist warmonger McCain, who proceeds to gets his pants beat in anyway. Talk about wasting your vote…
Now 2012: “I know Mitt Romney is even worse than Bush and McCain and is the most liberal Republican we’ve ever seen by a long shot, but we have to vote for him anyway! If we don’t Obama will win and he’ll destroy the country!!!”
In 2016 it’ll be the same story with you people: “I know _________ is horrible and doesn’t stand for our values, but we have to vote for him. If we don’t, _________ will win and he’ll destroy the country!!!!”
Meanwhile, no matter who wins, Christ continues to be dishonored, debt continues to pile up, the deficits get larger, unborn babies continue to be murdered by the millions, feminism gets stronger, the government gets bigger, unjust wars of aggression rage on, and same-sex “marriage” and other perversion continue to take root in law and culture.
David850, go on and fear-monger all you like about what’ll happen if the “other guy” wins, but I don’t care. Your Christless, faithless, pragmatism has been a disaster on every level. Some of us are tired of playing your little games.
Well put Joel. God moves when the situation seems impossible. Fear is from the devil and most who call themselves Christians, but hold their nose and vote against Christian principles lack the faith and trust in God to change this great nation. Until we all take a stand – no matter the cost – things will not change. “Oh , yea of little faith”
Does James White read these comments? If so, I’d like an answer to the question I asked earlier. I repeat…
What evidence do you have that “the recent resurgence of Mormonism in the United States” has been “spurred partly by…the rise to national prominence of Mormon bishop and returning missionary Willard Mitt Romney”?
Is there some study that backs this claim? Have the Mormons put out a statement showing a relationship between Romney’s “rise” and LDS membership increases? Or is this statement entirely an assumption on your part? Please answer.
Joel, I agree with you also. However, I’m 47 years old and have not yet figured out how to get a third party to win an election in my lifetime. I’ve enlisted my son and daughter in this fight, and (God willing) the will do their parts when they are old enough, but what would you recommend that I do? Do you think I’m happy with being a pragmatist? I’m not. However, short of armed revolution, I think the best I can do is train my children, students, coworkers and clients in how to think outside the two-party box. If you have a faster and more effective way, please tell me!
the real issue with dr white is he mixes truth with lies. he writes a great article here about mormonism but he has a whole ministry dedicated to discrediting the KJV as god’s only word to english speakers. he tramples the TR underfoot and promotes the corrupt alexandrine greek manuscripts. he speaks out of both sides of his mouth. he is a man best avoided.
Ana, I don’t think he was discrediting the King James Bible. The KJB is valuable; I prefer the Geneva Bible myself, but my church uses the ESV.
I am wondering, what the point of the timing of this article is? Are we trying to persuade good Christians to stay home and not vote for Mitt Romney? I think a careful analysis of the lives, histories, poitical views, assosciates, and philosiphies of these two candidates could not be more different. This should be an easy choice for any God fearing individual that belives that this country was founded by men inspired of God that tried to offer and ensure us the freedoms we enjoy to day.
Shame on AV for stirring the pot at a critical time such as this. We should be building consensus ammong those that champion Christian values and principles rather than nit-picking someones personal views of God. If you cannot recognize Obama for who he is by now you might want to revisit “by their works ye shall know them”, again.
I feel this new widening seperation of those that champion God’s laws vs. those who fight against them (or only give them lip service) will bring a new bond to all those who revere the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This week is a time to band together not tear apart. The philisophical differences we have all argued about for the past 250 years need to be put aside or we may lose the right to worship as we wish altogether. One thing we can all agree is that the world is becoming more wicked as we watch and it will not be long til the Savior comes again. I am sure He will shed some light on this subject for all. Meanwhile we have the most important election in the History of the United States in less than seven days. This is a conservative website, let get all our ducks in the same row so we don’t lose a critical swing state because fo this kind of foolishness.
May God bless America, may we pray for Mitt Romney and freedoms success. May we always remember “Blessed is the nation whose God is The Lord”. Mitt says he believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that is good enough for me.
Voting for a man who doesn’t fear God (the LORD God of the Bible), love truth (what God says is truth in His revealed word, The Bible), and hate covetousness (as God defines it)—be that candidate Obama or Romney—is not the act of a God-fearing voter. In fact, if we believe that the POTUS can ensure the freedoms we enjoy today (they are slipping away; we used to enjoy even more freedom, but Christians have compromised and now our freedoms are compromised), we are man-fearers, not God-fearers. The source of all freedom is God Himself.
Christians should be building a consensus regarding Christian values, that’s why I am so concerned about professing Christians who want to “build consensus” around a NON-Christian candidate. That Obama is evil and unqualified to be POTUS does NOT “make” Romney good and qualified to be POTUS. The world is becoming more wicked because Christians are turning away from God. We have been hiding our Light under pagan bushels and it’s making the world darker.
Ken, you know that Romney is a Mormon, not a Christian, yet you say that is “good enough for you” and “may God bless America.” God is cursing America because of the rebellion and disobedience of a people who honor God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, means that God will bless the people whose God is the LORD Jehovah of the Bible, not any ol’ false god blasphemously called “God” or “Jesus.” We must draw near to God that He will draw near to us. We must cleanse our hands, we sinners, and purify our hearts, we double-minded.
So does this mean that a Christian should never vote for a non-Christian for the office of the presidency?
Yes, that’s what I meant, Vance.
Ken: “Shame on AV for stirring the pot at a critical time such as this.”
Yes, shame on AV for putting GOP election politics on the back burning for the sake of God and his truth! How dare AV do such a thing!
“that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” HERESY!
PaulG
Yes it definitely is heresy. Thank you for being blundt and to the point.
As I read this article and the comments concerning it, I can’t help but wonder who among us really knows the truth. Each one of you (including those who have earned theological degrees from elite educational institutions) claim to know what is true, what or who is God,what is the meaning of this life, etc etc. The real truth is that none of us really “know” the truth. We each believe in certain ideologies, certain interpretations and concepts from the scriptures and from the church leaders. I may be the only right one – - – or I may be the only wrong one. I know what I believe, which is my right. You claim to know what you believe which is your right. Who among us is qualified to tell the other one that he/she is wrong. The audacity for anyone to publicly tell the world that any religion is wrong is defenseless. These attacks on Mormonism, or any other religion is baseless. Mormon’s believe in Truth and they veery graciously state that most religions have some truth in them. They believe that they have more truth, but so does Catholics, Protestants, etc. Why can’t everyone just let everyone else believe what they want and stick to their own houses, which usually needs a lot of attention. Why this malicious attack to prove someone (in this case Mormons) are wrong. Who among us have seen God so that we can define what or who He is? Mormon’s believe that God is in the form of man. Catholics (and others) believe that God is only an esoteric being with no form or function. Which of the two beliefs is the most preposterous? In the end there is only one Truth, and I submit we will all know that Truth when we arrive at the judgement seat of God. Man has so postulated God’s word that I wonder if anyone knows what or who He really is!
Of course we will all know the Truth when we stand before the judgment seat of God, but some will know it too late (they thought they knew it and were wrong) and will be destroyed for eternity in hell. That’s why the Truth must be proclaimed and known now. Today is the day of salvation…
Polytheism, pluralism, relativism, nihilism, and skepticism are not good alternatives to Truth.
You definitely don’t know the truth. The Spirit of Truth is not given to the world. One must repent of his sins and especially the “sin of unbelief.” I feel EXTREMELY sorry for you because you don’t really know what you believe. If you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything. If you know the TRUTH or better than that the “Spirit of Truth” you cannot be deceived. In the endtime (which we are probably in) the greatest tool of the antichrist is deception. In other words “any Jesus will do.” This is the most dangerous time we live in and the only ones that will know the truth are those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” That is the truth and the Bible declares: “Seek and ye shall find; knock and the door shall be opened to you; ask and it shall be given to you.” That would be my wholeheartedly suggestion to you. Ye shall then know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Whom Jesus sets free is “free indeed.” God said in the last days He will give them over to believe a lie because they had no LOVE for the TRUTH! I hope you are not one of those.
I beg to differ with you Katrina. I am certain I know the truth and it has set me free. Free enough not to criticize you or anyone else because they don’t agree with my truth. Christ did not tell us to condemn those who didn’t accept our “truth”, but to lead them to the truth and let them accept it or deny it. Further only the Holy Spirit can lead you to the truth, and not the theologians who happen to have studied the scriptures in some man conceived academic institutions. A degree does not automatically qualify you for the truth. The Mormon’s believe in the truth and feel positive that they have the fullness of the Gospel. Because of that belief they do not go around writing articles claiming the Episcopal, or Lutherans or Born Again sects are all wrong and will go to hell. They offer them their truth, but allow for them to exercise their agency and accept it or not. By the very fact that there are so many different Christian sects and churches, each espousing different doctrine, proves that the “Christian society” is somewhat confused and in chaos. By the way “I am a Mormon.”
“Why this malicious attack to prove someone (in this case Mormons) are wrong. Who among us have seen God so that we can define what or who He is? Mormon’s believe that God is in the form of man.”
The article addresses a specific issue–the Mormon belief that God is an exalted man. Whether or not any of us can fully comprehend or explain the nature of God is not the issue. The issue is the teaching that God and humans are the same species. They are NOT! The article is not attacking Mormons as people; it’s accurately quoting THEIR literature to show what THEY (their “prophets”) actually teach and have taught for a long time. And it rightly points out that the idea of God as a highly evolved man is the greatest problem with Mormonism. It’s hardly a “malicious attack.”
The Real Issue with Dr. White: “He’s Not a Real Christian”
I think that “mainstream” Christianity’s biggest stumbling block is its intolerance toward other religions. Christianity for thousands of years was defined as believing that Christ suffered an Atonement for our sins and was resurrected on that third day that all might live again. Christianity used to mean being kind to others, trying to make oneself as best as possible, and obeying God’s law. For many, many centuries, most Christians didn’t own a Bible, use fancy degrees and jargon to make themselves sound smarter than everyone else, or try to answer every question under the stars with doctorine. It was enough to believe in God, believe in Christ, and to make good choices.
All these so-called Christians came along to create their own exclusive definition of Christian. These mainstreamers spend hours debating the meaning of a letter in one word in one verse, while completely missing the point of the verse: BE NICE TO PEOPLE. These mainstreamers spend hours reading the Bible and trying to construct their own series of verses to twist doctrine into what they believe it should say. These mainstreamers complain when someone wants to give money to those who really need it instead of them for their fancy presents. And my favorite, they believe they need to get a special degree or education in theology because I guess they believe God’s word wasn’t meant to be understand by the average scripture reading and praying person.
To Dr. White and all those who hold this “I’m an elitist mainstream Christian” attitude, maybe the reason Mormonism is spreading so quickly is because they teach true Christianity–Christ is the Son of God who Atoned for our sins and was resurrected for us that we might live again if we follow Christ’s example and teachings and God’s commandments. Oh and yes, they also teach that family is important. How many “mainstream Christians” are divorced? Maybe you don’t like the Mormons because they can actually hold their families together. Maybe you don’t like the Mormons because you might actually have to spend time with your children and teach them yourselves, not just expect kids to turn out okay after Sunday school each week. Mormons teach service as a commandment. So maybe you mainstreamers just don’t want to get up off the couch to help a neighbor move, a family member cut trees, or an elderly neighbor paint. Let’s see, they want people to know about God and the temporary nature of life on earth so that when bad things happen, there’s a bigger picture understanding. If a loved child dies, according to you mainstreamers, that child must burn forever if there was no baptism. Gee, I wonder why this idea is not popular? We can compare it to Mormons who believe that children haven’t learned enough about right and wrong until they are older. If they die while young, they will live again. And if they die when they are older, parents will get to see them again. I’m not sure why you all think this is such a horrible thought…..
The Bible has quite a section devoted to it on those who “choke on the gnats.” Well my friends, you’ve again managed to choke on them. You spend all this time squabbling about a detail you don’t like. You say mean things. You hate people. You alienate anyone who might have thought you were nice people. I really don’t understand how that’ following Christ. Let the one of you without sin cast the first stone. Stop worrying about the mote in your neighbor’s eye and start working on that beam that’s in your own. Maybe if you elitist mainstream “Christians” spent more time helping people, more time trying to hold your families together, more time trying to perfect yourselves, and less time worrying about which leader of what church said something you don’t agree with and when, your religion would be on the rise and you’d find yourselves happier people in the process. Then you might actually be following Christ–what a real Christian does.
Kate:
Dr. White can speak for himself, but my guess is that he would agree that many teachings of the LDS are true and that many Mormons live exemplary lives as spouses, parents, neighbors, etc. But his topic concerns the Mormon view of God. Just read the title of his article. The “real issue,” White says, is the terribly misguided notion that “God is an exalted man.” Though there are many positive things we could say about a great many wonderful folks who embrace Mormonism, we still have to admit that their view of God as an exalted man is a grave error. The LDS church has a stated mission of reaching all with the “restored gospel.” That fact underscores the importance of exposing Mormonism’s false doctrines. Articles such as this one have helped some Mormons see and embrace the truth. If we love them, that’s what we want for them, is it not?
Fellow Christians, it is so frustrating to read these types of mediocre, tired arguments over and over and over again among the same groups of people. I laugh when I try to understand a criticism against anyone who tries to explain who God is or what he is. The Church of Jesus Christ teaches that God is First and Last, Alpha & Omega, Creator of the Universe, Creator of all that is, Supreme Being, Love, the list is endless. Some have used the term Exalted Man, but it is not one that I used or have used. It is not doctrine or required belief among Latter-day Saints.
What is required is that we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, performed miracles, was crucified for the sins of mankind, rose the third day, sits at the right hand of the Father, and will return again one day. That is foundational doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ; this is what all Latter-day Saints believe and teach without question.
This belief in Jesus is what saves an individual from sin. This is what compels an individual to take up his cross and follow Jesus. This is what makes an individual a Christian. In fact, I dare anyone to introduce any teaching that is so important that it destroys the saving power of Jesus Christ. Name one, show me what belief is so important that denying it belittles and destroys the saving power of Jesus. Is it the Trinity? Is it that the Man-God Jesus Christ was exalted and sits at the right hand of the Father? What other doctrine do you have that overwhelms the blood of Jesus?
Honesty is not found among anti-Mormons and never has been. From Howe down to White they distort, lie, and deceive. It is their very nature to deny Christ in order to heap upn themselves their admiration of man. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” because they deny the power of Jesus Christ.
“I laugh when I try to understand a criticism against anyone who tries to explain who God is or what he is.”
Do you get the point that Mormon “prophets” claim that God is an exalted man, that God and humans are the same species (except that God is waaaay ahead of us in growth and development)? None of us can fully comprehend or explain the divine nature, but there are things we CAN know about God. We know He is wholly other than any and all created things; that He has no beginning or end, but is eternal. We therefore know He is NOT an exalted man!
Kate, I definately sympathize with some of your statements about ‘elites’ who cannot seem to relate to the everyday things of life and who create sectarianism (however, this is becoming less and less of a problem). However, the vestiges of elitism remain. And there are some who continue to enjoy these vestiges.
What about the “12 apostles” of Mormonism? Are they not elite? Do they not debate and argue over trifles? What about those Mormon apologists at Brigham Young University? The Mormon sect is MORE invested in maintaining its seperateness (and eliteness) over other sects, than some Baptists, Lutherans, or Charismatics are! They have to be (it takes more effort to defend lies: such as how many native Americans descended from Jews). Now maybe this sectarian wall is coming down, and you recognize that we are all christian who believe in Jesus Christ. That’s good. But collapsing the walls a little bit will mean that there is MORE conversation – not less!!! So, get ready to defend your positions! The Bible says to strive for the unity of faith (no doubt, prayer, brotherhood, and discussion has something to do with that). We are to speak truth in love, especially with each other.
What about the sectarianism created by Joseph Smith himself? What if I don’t accept him as a ‘prophet’ or accept the “Book of Mormon”. Is this like a Muhammad deal? “There is no God but… for us ‘earthlings’, our Heavenly Father… and Joseph Smith is his prophet.” And if you don’t like it, then you’re not part of the club? That sounds like sectarianism AND elitism, among a group of people who are supposed to be exclusively dedicated to JESUS CHRIST.
In order to join with your fellow Christians, I’m going to say it point-blank: Joseph Smith and his book has to be dismissed as a sectarian, twisted addition to the Scriptures. Just like for the Muslims: Muhammad and his book? Same thing as JS: Muhammad was a bad example (far from our best example), and his book is full of lies of convenience, and deceit meant to keep people beholden to him.
“No man or woman will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. [They] must have the certificate of Joseph Smith Jr. as a passport to their entrance…” (“Journal of Discourses” by Brigham Young, vol 7, p. 289). To be perfectly blunt, all of this is complete nonsense and is a flat-out denial of biblical Christianity whether they like to hear it or not.
Kate, I just wanted to let you know that what I’m saying is real, and not merely some pontificating academic. I had a friend who wanted to be “mormon” in order to get away from her former congregation and its members. She did not try to win them. She wanted to get away. I think her reasons were more personal than doctrinal, but the doctrine provided a nice wall or buffer against the rest of us. I had long conversations with her, and this is the only way that I know what was in her mind. She used Mormon doctrine to denounce us unless we also chose to walk with her and follow Joseph Smith into the higher levels of paradise (the local stake and temple marriages). Oh, she bought into it – at least for a time – in order to get away from the most open and unrestrictive place you can imagine (but a place that had a few friendships that had gone sour). And she used the doctrine, the leadership heirarchy, the temples and stakes and whole format… as a wedge issue that prioritized friendships with fellow believers as ‘less than’. From this perch, she could question the salvation of those who still cared deeply about her. She had found a ‘new family’ (at least temporarily).
Sectarianism definately doesn’t stop where the LDS begins – sometimes it BEGINS there. I am definately NOT saying that sectarianism BEGAN with the LDS. Joseph Smith spotted a few problems: and then continued to fall into them, himself – becoming even worse than those he accused. The solution is to rally around Jesus Christ! Him alone, and the New Covenant as described precisely in the Bible, is our template! Jesus is our Life!
Kate, since this is on who God actually is………if you disagree with White, then you are rejecting the biblical and historical descriptions of God, which are Trinitarian. So you might want to step back, and ask yourself, which Christ you are following? the Christ of the Scriptures or one of your own imagination?
Tim thanks for being honest. The only True Jesus is the Biblical Jesus. That is how you can tell false religion from true religion. The Trinity is one of the most imporant doctrines that exist and is the Revelation of the Father. Denying that Jesus (God) was incarnate in the flesh of Christ Jesus is a dangerous doctrine and will send a person to Hell. We must have the true Jesus. The antichrist (the one who pretends to be the Christ) will deceive many because they don’t really know the REAL JESUS. In fact I would go as far as to say they are of the antichristal spirit. Very dangerous for they are not saved and think they are.
What evidence do you have that “the recent resurgence of Mormonism in the United States” has been “spurred partly by…the rise to national prominence of Mormon bishop and returning missionary Willard Mitt Romney”?
Thanks for this Dr. White.
You were very clear and succinct as always!
Jimmie, why wont you return my phone calls? Why wont you return my emails? You want everyone to think you are a big bad lion, but we both know you are nothing but a little ol’ puss. Meow!
Great article. This ‘infinity of divine Fathers’ is the largest problem with Mormonism. I simply do not know how normally common-sense people (such as Glenn Beck and others) can follow this teaching and others which flow from it. One thing that Intelligent Design theory always points out is: the evolutionary theory of panspermia (life from alien life) only pushes the creation/evolution problem back 1 more step! Where did the aliens come from? Same thing with this particular Mormon idea. It only pushes the Fatherhood/Creator/Origin back into infinite regression. (This always happens, whenever there is no timeless ETERNITY taken into account.)
The fact is, there is a realm of timelessness, which God alone inhabits. He knows the end and the beginning. He is One. He IS. Eternity is not (necessarily) the same thing as “everlasting”. Deep eternity is entirely outside the realm of time, time is like a thin thread in a room. Eternity is the room. That’s how big God is compared to the man moving along the undulating thread called time & temporal things. Things don’t move upward from beneath. They move DOWNWARD from the Father/Creator/Origin.
If we do not have a proper view of monotheism, we cannot have a proper view of the Son of God. God taught us about monotheism first, before He taught us about His Son. This doesn’t mean that people cannot trust God with their HEARTS, and know SOMETHING about mercy and grace and the cross: for we walk by the light of our conscience. As long as we are honest about it, God winks at our limitations. We have to trust God to save us from ourselves, and that error isn’t just a problem based on what we do, but that what we do comes from what we are. God must save us from ourselves: and He has provided His means. So it is possible to be moderately “Christian” even without having heard the gospel message (Job, Abram, even some Roman centurions, had not heard of the gospel message – but they still believed, God spoke with them, and they followed God where He directed them…with selfless faith.) But inserting an infinity of Fathers, only muddies the picture (at best!).
Joseph Smith: “I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.”
We are created to express the attributes of God, even perhaps in our physical form. Our physical form may be (somewhat) symbolic of certain spiritual realities. This does not mean that when God appears to us as a man, that He is showing us His very essence. That’s foolishness. The precise reason why Jesus left was to send the Holy Spirit – so that we could commune on a deeper level than a man with another man! God is Spirit!
“In fact, it is quite plain that Smith did not hold to this radical denial of historic Christian doctrine when he founded the LDS Church in 1830. But sometime in the mid 1830s his views became more and more radical until they reached this final stage shortly before his murder in the Carthage City jail June 27th, 1844.”
Joseph Smith seemed to start out where a lot of the Protestant Reformers started out: with a primitive form of “Christian Historicism” which was common in early American sentiment. “I’ve discovered something that nobody else (denominationally) is teaching. All of the denominations are wrong, now follow me!” (Only Joseph Smith proceeded to create merely another sect to add to the pile, because he was not humble enough to admit that he didn’t know it all, and that he wasn’t sent to “re-establish the one, true, pure faith.” After he got a following, he just kept inventing things, to provide continued reason for his existence as their leader – and to feed his pride. He had a creative and ambitious mind from the start, so this wasn’t hard for him. He invented as he went. (And Brigham Young was even worse.)
A similar thing happened to Muhammad. He started out being friendly to Christians and Jews, and preaching a monotheism similar to Christianity (relatively)… and it just grew more and more hardened in sectarianism, intolerance, pride, based on his own teachings, etc. Why? Because Muhammad was THE prophet. This meant that anyone who didn’t receive him, needed to be ‘restored to the faith which had altogether lost its way.’ Interestingly, both had issues with “the Trinity”. (I have a oneness pentecostal background, so I can certainly relate!) However, the goal should be to stick as close to the Bible language & text as possible when trying to form a ‘mental picture’ of God and what God is doing in time.
We should learn from the mistakes of the past, to stick as close as possible to the leadership style of Jesus and the apostles. They determined not to be sectarian and had to face the same leadership issues as we all do. Early America was rife for denominal and sectarian splits, because they had already seen a pattern of open disagreements leading to the creation of separate hierarchies. And since there was now religious freedom, separate from the state sword, this sectarian activity became ever more entrepreneurial and abundant. However, even with all of this free entrepreneurial discourse, the old authoritarian trappings of “clergy” were still culturally & FIRMLY in place (tithes, central buildings, fixed-member-roles, top-down authoritarianism concerning all matters churchly, etc).
Smith was just duplicating a centuries-old pattern of hardened sectarianism, with a few doctrinal ‘twists’ thrown in – taking advantage of the American freedoms to do such! (Entrepreneurial freedoms guaranteed by Christians much older and wiser than himself! Smith seemed to think that America existed SO THAT he could do what he did, rather than the fact that America existed for everyone to be free and know God and the Bible.) So when Smith got the trust of a dedicated following, he ran wild with it and his ego took off beyond all comparison! The only thing limiting Smith was that he had to compete with a Christianized culture. So he couldn’t stray too far from the Bible – he had to at least make it look like Bible, at first. The main opposition to contain Muhammad’s influence was paganism, which principled monotheism could easily beat (in terms of emotional and rhetorical force). Therefore, because of the originating cultural conditions and the easy theological competition he faced, Muhammad ended up in a much harsher position toward other belief systems than Smith did. But it’s the same underlying dynamic.
The primary difference: Smith’s position was a little more Christianized, and a little closer to the truths of God redeeming us from ourselves through the Son, and our abiding with Him in freedom through the Spirit. But Muhammadism kept the greater cultural strength of One God, beyond compare. And Muhammadism continually challenges the “Trinity” to a duel. I’ve spoken to muslims, and it’s the first thing out of their mouths: 3 does not equal 1. Joseph Smith, I suppose, took the opposite extreme: an infinity can be one Godhead. I would say that God is One (the shema), and as Spirit, He can be IN many, through His Son the Intercessor. God can also be in more than one place at a time. And He can also walk with men with a body (or the appearance of a body) without it being permanent or being a man. We worship the created thing in place of the Creator. I think there’s something about that in the Bible… (There’s my two cents.)
One thing I LIKE about Mormonism: its imagination. Like many, Smith looked up at the skies, and wondered “what’s it all for?” That’s a lot of space up there! It testifies to God’s greatness and creativity in sustaining such a massive place. People were probably wondering a lot about that type of thing, when Mr. Smith came along with his sci-fi story about Kolob (I almost said Kobol… as I know that Battlestar Gallactica was initially invented by a Mormon. And what do you know? A leftist, hippie version of Mormon fiction actually ended up on the Syfy channel, with a ‘Christian’ magazine “Relevant” calling it good art.)
Before America, it was only a distant dream that we could even exist “up there”. But now we know: that if human population rates were to grow at normal 20th century rates for the next 1000 years, we would NEED a lot of that space ‘up there’. Get a calculator, run the #’s! I don’t care what your idea of the millennium is, if biology and reproduction continue, it’s true. We would need those resources (that God has already lovingly provided). It took free enterprise to naturally go up there and step foot on another planetoid. And it took Christianity (complete with its ethics and virtues) in order to develop a society that could have PRODUCTIVE free enterprise. This is why the left’s disenfranchisement of Christians and the Bible must not succeed (though they don’t know what they’re doing). As Christianity spreads around the globe, we can rest assured that Christian liberty will take us to places where we have not even seen or imagined. (Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.) We will not be gods (as God is God), but we will be sons. And Heaven may ‘come down’ to join earth, and God may someday PERFECT and purify what remains here, before Jesus steps down and returns in the flesh. America is just one step in this journey: helping us have the liberty and protections to have a conversation, to unify as people around Jesus Christ, and to teach the world what true liberty is all about. This is why Christian faith precedes libertarianism.
God will “be a wonderfully big God.” He IS! Christ came, died, rose, ascended that he may fill all things. We are all to be sons of God, with Jesus as the only mediator between God and man. As He is in Heaven, He will be known here in this earthly realm.
*correction: We (people) TEND to worship the created (creature) rather than the Creator (Father).
We desire physical (visible, tangible) props to house and welcome our worship and adoration. We nominate people and places to fill this void. So we have “temples” and “apostles” and extra-biblical traditions to carry the torch of ‘our faith’ (lack of faith). But even Jesus, in the flesh, said that we have One Father, we have One Teacher. God is One, and desires to fill All that He creates. Jesus was the only mediator, the Father manifested in the flesh (the mind, will and emotions of his flesh were of course the Son). No prophet held as unique of a place in history or reality as Jesus. No other mediator other than Jesus and His Spirit is necessary: and all teaching is to direct us toward this.
When we form a culture around ‘uniquely-qualified’ “prophets” or “apostles” or “elders” (it doesn’t matter what you title them): you are attempting to create another mediator in addition to Jesus Christ. This is the problem with the Papacy, it’s the problem with Muhammad (THE ‘final’ prophet), it’s the problem with Joseph Smith. Rather let your elder and leader be your servant and the servant of others. No need to try to establish walls. Pray, read the Bible, learn, discuss, and go and teach yourself (in many ways). God’s kingdom is very entrepenreneurial, and there are only a few main qualifications: among them are to honor God, and to submit to the Holy Spirit which comes through Jesus Christ. Strive to be an upstanding ambassador for Jesus Christ on earth, in the Light of the Word, and as you (a saint) mature in the faith and become capable of leading and teaching others: you become an elder and a leader to those around. There is no inherent need for perpetuating an official heirarchy. It’s ironic that in rebuking sectarianism, Joseph Smith went on to create a bureaucratic and rigid sect around 12 who were then titled ‘apostles’. (All an apostle means, in the Bible, is “sent one.” An apostle is basically a missionary. And there were more than just 12. It’s an ability, a gift, a task and privilege that comes from God and doesn’t always pass through the hand of men (Paul). The same goes for probably all gifts, positions, talents, etc.)
I think Erik sums up the problem with all cults. They cannot reconcile their own confusion.
So to be a member of the LDS church in good standing, which do you believe:
Joseph Smith:
“We have imagine and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.”
Or
The Book of Mormon – Moroni 8:18:
“For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity”
Wow! As with all his articles that I have read, I appreciate this article by Dr. White, exposing the Mormon/LDS misconception of the nature of God and false doctrine of the (future, possible) deification of men. Quoting Joseph Smith’s own words makes it all the more devastating a critique.