The following is from Michael Vlach’s article “My Thoughts on the Dispensational Study Group at ETS.” (ETS is the Evangelical Theological Society that meets yearly.)
“The panel discussion was interesting. [Bruce Compton, of Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary] believes there is a pendulum swing against Dispensationalism today, but he is hopeful the pendulum will swing back toward Dispensationalism.
“In what I thought was the most significant part of the night, the panel and some in the crowd expressed hope that further discussions between Progressive dispensationalists and Traditional dispensationalists should continue, but the time has come for dispensationalists to offer a more unified defense of Dispensationalism. More emphasis should be given to dispensational commentaries and works on hermeneutics. I agree with this. [Craig] Blaising [of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary] singled out the subject of Supersessionism (Replacement Theology) as being a major issue that dispensationalists should respond to. No argument from me on that one (smile).”
There are a few things of interest in these comments. First, the most obvious one is that “there is a pendulum swing against Dispensationalism today.” I whole heartedly agree. While Compton “is hopeful the pendulum will swing back toward Dispensationalism,” it’s hopefulness without a foundation.
Second, Vlach does understand that the battle is not between Progressive dispensationalists and Traditional dispensationalists. Only seminarians are interested in the differences. Progressive dispensational books don’t sell. If a prophecy book doesn’t identify who the antichrist might be and what signs are on the horizon leading up to an any-moment rapture, it won’t sell. Only people who have found serious flaws in traditional dispensationalism and don’t want to lose their jobs as pastors and teachers will embrace the Progressive variety. They can still claim to be dispensationalists and draw a salary.
Third, Vlach and his fellow Progressive dispensationalists need to realize that their intramural fight is not where the action is. People are abandoning all forms of dispensationalism for preterism because preterists make a more compelling biblical argument. I’ve seen it happen over and over again. Rarely do big-name dispensationalists renounce the system (they have too much to lose), but there are thousands of rank-and-file dispensationalists who have left. All this has been done without a major publisher getting behind preterist books.
Thomas Nelson published two that I know of. My book End Times Fiction (now published as Left Behind: Separating Fact from Fiction) , a comprehensive critique of the Left Behind series, was published in 2001. It was a poorly titled small paperback that diminished its impact. I suspect that some of the people on the editorial committee wanted to go low profile with its publication. While I was glad to write it, I noted to the person who commissioned me to write it that it would be a hard commercial sell since Christian booksellers would only make about $5.00 while they were making thousands of dollars selling the 16-volume Left Behind series, a children’s version, graphic novels, and related nicknacks.
Hank Hanegraaff flirted with preterism for a time, and TN published his Apocalypse Code in 2007. When TN was approached about publishing additional books on preterism, the higher ups declined. I was told that there was no money in it. Hanegraaff’s name and “Bible Answer Man” ministry sold the Apocalypse Code. Hanegraaff was not popular with a number of popular dispensationalist authors who sell a lot of books. Tim LaHaye was upset with Tyndale, the publisher of Left Behind, for publishing Hanegraaff’s fictional preterist series. This is all to say that preterism is mounting a formidable challenge to dispensationalism without the backing of mainstream publishing houses that crank out end-time books by the gross.
Fourth, while not mentioned in Vlach’s article, when dispensationalists no longer publicly defend their system against non-dispensationalists like preterists, it’s the end of the road. Vlach can pretend that the debate is between Traditionalist and Progressive dispensationalists, but he’s only fooling himself. Neither group deals with the questions that a preterist would ask.
Fifth, Vlach’s comment that “more emphasis should be given to dispensational commentaries and works on hermeneutics” is spot on. The books and commentaries that are being published today are written by amateurs who repeat worn out arguments that could never stand up to scrutiny by a preterist. Does anyone believe that dispensational Traditionalists and Progressives discuss the time texts, why the New Testament doesn’t say anything about a rebuilt temple, how to account for non-existent gaps in a passage like Daniel 9:24–27, the fact that there is not a single passage that says anything about a pre-tribulational rapture, and so much more?
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Sixth, Vlach’s final comment is telling. Where Traditionalists and Progressives agree is on “the subject of Supersessionism (Replacement Theology) as being a major issue that dispensationalists should respond to. No argument from me on that one (smile).”
Let’s be clear about something. It’s dispensationalists that maintain that during the parenthesis, that is, between the 69th and the yet future 70th week (7 years) of Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 9:24–27), God is not dealing with Israel. This is an important point that dispensationalists rarely bring up. Dispensationalists have always argued that we are not in prophetic time. Consider the following by dispensationalist author E. Schuyler English:
An intercalary period of history, after Christ’s death and resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, has intervened. This is the present age, the Church age.… During this time God has not been dealing with Israel nationally, for they have been blinded concerning God’s mercy in Christ.… However, God will again deal with Israel as a nation. This will be in Daniel’s seventieth week, a seven-year period yet to come.[1]
The supposed unfulfilled promises made to Israel will not be fulfilled until after the Church is “raptured.” Thomas Ice, a co-author with prophecy writers Tim LaHaye and Mark Hitchcock, states that the Church replaced Israel this side of the rapture: “We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel ‘as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.’” ((Thomas Ice, “The Israel of God,” The Thomas Ice Collection: http://bit.ly/xys45K))
Non-dispensationalists like me would say that all the promises made to Israel have been fulfilled, and the redemption of Israel according to those promises made it possible for Gentiles to be grafted into an already existing Jewish assembly of believers that the Bible calls the ekklēsia, incorrectly translated as “church.”
Soon after Jesus’ ascension, the gospel was preached to “Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men, from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5). If this is not God dealing specifically and solely with Israel, then I don’t know what is. To say that the ekklēsia is a “mystery” unknown to the Old Testament prophets contradicts what Peter states in Acts 2:16: “this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel.” “This” is a reference to the events of Pentecost. If Joel predicted what was happening, and the dispensationalists claim that Pentecost is the beginning of the Ekklēsia Age, then the ekklēsia is not a mystery; it is the fulfillment of Bible prophecies made first and foremost to Israel. The ekklēsia is not something new. The ekklēsia — made up of Israelites — was in the “wilderness” (7:38).
Peter addresses the crowd at Pentecost as the “men of Israel” (Acts 2:22). He expands his message to include “all the house of Israel” (2:36). The “brethren” — Israelite brethren — want to know what they, as Jews, must do to be saved. Peter tells them, “For the promise is for you and your children…” (2:39). There is nothing in this chapter of Acts that indicates that the promises first made to Israel were not being fulfilled right then and there. Peter continued to preach to his countrymen by informing them that “Jesus the Christ” was “appointed for you” (3:20). The “restoration of all things” (3:21) is the pre-ordained redemptive work of Jesus to fulfill what all the prophets had written.
Peter tells them that the prophets “announced these days” (3:24). “It is you who are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed’” (3:25). There is no mention of a postponement of the promises during “an intercalary period of history.”
These Jewish believers, the recipients of the promises spoken by the prophets (3:24), made up ekklēsia (“assembly”) (5:11). The Gospel message, “the whole message of this Life,” was to be proclaimed “to the people in the temple” (5:20), that is, to Jews. We learn later that Gentiles became a part of this existing assembly (ekklēsia) of believers to take part in the promises first given to Israel (Acts 10:34–48). Notice the conclusion:
“And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also” (10:45).
“Also” implies the Holy Spirit was first poured out on the Jews. Paul makes the same point in Romans 11 when he writes that the Gentiles were grafted into an existing Israelite body of believers that Acts describes as “the assembly” (ekklēsia).
Dispensationalists have a huge problem on their hands in that only a remnant of Israelites will be saved during a seven-year period called the Great Tribulation after two-thirds of them are slaughtered (Zech. 13:8). So God wants nearly 2000 years to fulfill His promises to His chosen people and then lets the antichrist have his way with 4 million of them.
There’s much more that can be said on this topic. I’ve outlined what the real issues are in my books Last Days Madness, Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future, and 10 Popular Prophecy Myths Revealed and Answered.
Endnotes:- E. Schuyler English, A Companion to the New Scofield Reference Bible (New York: Oxford University Press, 1972), 135. [↩]
Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandsons, Calvin and Paul. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).
Gary, great little summation of currents in biblical eschatology. As they say these days, YOU ROCK!
” I don’t know what the hyper-preterists are.”. What an ignorant statement.
Mark,
What are they?
Gary,
I am reposting my comment in case you missed it. It seems to me that your assertion in the following paragraph has HUGE implications.
You say:
“Non-dispensationalists like me would say that all the promises made to Israel have been fulfilled, and the redemption of Israel according to those promises made it possible for Gentiles to be grafted into an already existing Jewish assembly of believers that the Bible calls the ekklēsia, incorrectly translated as “church.””
So, are you saying that a physical bodily Resurrection at the end of time WAS NOT a promise made to Israel?
Can you please clarify?
No wonder we’re losing the culture war…(sigh)
LOL. What do you mean?
Hi Michael!
The 1 billion members of the RCC you mentioned do not necessarily subscribe to a futurist amillennialist type of eschatology as taught by your CCC(668-677). In our own larger family & community alone where the religion of Roman Catholicism dominates, I could hear them talk about end times issues using the “lingua franca” & the common stock-in-trade terminologies of the popular Pre-trib Rapture, Dispensational Premillennialism. Vocabularies like: Pre-Trib Rapture, 7 years of Tribulation, the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the 7 Years of Tribulation, the Abomination of Desolation, the 1 day of God is equal to 1000 years, the 10 nation confederacy as the 10 Horns of the Beast, the Gog & Magog, Armageddon, Russia as the “Biblical “Rosh allied with all the Muslim nations-spearheading the Gog & Magog attack against the modern Israel in the near future, Israel as the holy & chosen people of God and many more, are but an indication that they are more influenced by the broadcast media (including internet) than the Roman Catholic’s CCC(668-677). Guess where do you think they got those info from? From the CCC(668-677)? Definitely not! They got it from the pop tv-vangelists & preachers from the cable, internet & our local stations here in MANILA, PHILIPPINES. Perhaps it’s not too strong to say that, we could be a micro-cosmic exemplar of the bigger picture.
Names like John Hagee, Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Greg Laurie, John McArthur, Hal Lindsey & of course Tim La Haye, are but almost a household names here-depending on one’s favorite/s. These RCs remain as faithful members of the RC church while being converted to the popular end-times eschatology(w/c is John Darby’s, Dyspy Premil)! This is why I totally disagree with your statement that Gary & others are not doing a good job. I say, YES!, these guys are doing a good job. The wealth of biblical & well researched info they provide to their readers are very timely & educational and help stem the tide of erroneous, fallacious & unbiblical yet ever-popular teachings like John Darby’s Dispy Premil. And mind you,they make the bulk of my “ammo” here in Manila. If I have a potential convert to Preterism & Postmillennianism who are inquiring for more of related-info, I just lead them to websites of Gary’s AV, DJ & Ken Gentry’s Nicene Council, James Jordan’s Biblical Horizons, Peter Leithart’s Credenda, Monergism, Theologia and others. And by God’s grace, I’m doing some progress here in Manila. These guys taught me that Eschatology is more than an end times issue, it is actually a Worldview; that’s why AV has maintained a balanced biblical worldview on real world issues.
I hope Michael this input of mine will help you better understand the reality out there. To Gary & the AV boys, carry on guys…!
OK, but that’s not my experience.
OK.
The focus on dispensationalism reflects a preoccupation with evangelical subculture. Just because dispensationalism is silly doesn’t mean preterism is correct. Most Christians in the world are Roman Catholic. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches a futurist amillennialism where the great tribulation and coming of the anti-Christ are still future (please CCC 668-677). This is also the position of Eastern Orthodoxy. Rather than spend your time shooting dispensational fish in a barrel, preterist post-millennialists need to spend more time offering convincing arguments about why 2000 years of church history is mistaken and why their ideas will not lead to heretical hyper-preterism. So far you guys are not doing a very good job.
AMEN, Michael! That’s what I’ve been trying to say for 2 years, now!
Most post-futurists, or post-dispensationalists will look around & form their own opinions. Most will NOT revert to Preterism. Preterism tries to close a prophetic box that still is very much open. Preterism wants to pretend that everything has already been pre-sanitized by their “hermeneutic”. (When the case is still very much open and alive.)
The best way to put yourself forward, is to become conversant with each particular assertion being put forward by the “neo-dispensationalists” or whatever. The days of “complete systematic interpretations” duking it out like seperate denominations… is over. Enter into the conversation. Don’t just stay within the comfortable confines of Preterism, and expect everyone to come to you. Because most will read, agree with a little bit, and then go on to other things. People badly want a CONTEMPORARY context in which to place themselves in the prophetic scheme. Where are they compared to Bible prophecy, IN Bible prophecy? People want to know where they are in history, in the battle of the ages…and not just where they are compared to the threats of statist institutions.
An evangelical subculture? “The Late Great Planet Earth” has sold around 30 million copies. The Left Behind series has sold close to 85 million copies. Show me a subculture with those numbers. Preterism is correct because it’s biblical. Dispensationalism is incorrect because it’s unbiblical. The same is true of amillennialism. When’s the last time a Roman Catholic has had a book published on eschatology? There may be some out there, but they don’t well well. Most RCs know very little about eschatology. Joel McDurmon is debating the topic of FP vs. PP. How many more books do I have to write on where we are in history? How many more did R.J. Rushdoony need to write, or Gary North? It’s your turn to write the books. Send me yours when you get one written and published.
Just this morning, a preacher on my radio spoke about Revelation. He said that there is increasing demand for people to talk specifically about it. I knew he was a Futurist, but I had hope for some wisdom. But in the message I heard, it was 10% wisdom, and 90% regurgitation of 1980′s style futurism. But that kind of end-of-the-world reasoning is not satisfying the majority of people who look at their everyday lives here, and want to “make a difference.” So I guess the “rage against the futurist machine” does continue for a while longer. But most evangelicals are in the process of moving on. Nobody preaches futurism anymore. Even futurists complain to their preachers that they don’t hear enough about “Revelation.” Instead, there seems to be a down-to-earth optimism (a la Lakewood/Osteen, Rick Warren, etc.) taking its place. You’re right that there is a divide in the Futurist camp: between the hard-liners and those who are open to big new ideas (I call them post-futurists, because that’s what they are). The new post-futurist camp has a tendency to be MUCH more optimistic, much more reliant on the gifts of the Holy Spirit (healing, prophecy), less picky, more conversational. They are explorers.
I guess many on this website choose not to be conversant if it means evaluating things with fresh eyes: stepping beyond the ‘confines’ of Partial Preterism or wholesale Preterism.
The Preterists are easy to predict: 70ad. That’s it. Nothing after that but status quo kingdom living. Be happy and die…and be with the Lord (in some state).
But I really don’t get the Partial Preterists. Supposedly not everything has been fulfilled, somehow. But I don’t hear much about those precise passages. What in Revelation has been fulfilled, and what is remaining to be fulfilled? Why? What is the logic behind “the wait”? Does it all have to happen at one time? God often works in stories, and expresses His eternal logic using a chronological story. Your belief that God is sovereign over history, means that History is His Story. Well, what of the last 2000 years? Is it merely the story of pure saints overcoming a wicked world? Well, what of those who called themselves saints, but weren’t? Some distinguishing needs to be done, and out in the open. The true ekklesia has to be revealed as distinct from the false christs. Is the papacy true ekklesia, a false christ, or a mixture? What of the denominations and power-structures? Just to say ‘church’ (or ‘apostle’) is not enough. What does the last 2000 years of Western Civilization mean, in Biblical terminology using precise meanings? Fact is, our official ‘titles’ are not the true usages of those words. A real pastor is a pastor – regardless of what he calls himself. An imposter is never a real pastor – regardless of what he calls himself. It’s time we wake up to the true word meanings in NT…and begin speaking using those definitions ONLY. Then, revelation becomes more clear. The fight isn’t just “out there in the world,” it’s in our own hearts (as Partial Preterists point out) and in the church! This spiritual battle in the church operates in ways similar to the world, but uses spiritual faith and spiritual terminology as its currency. And tries to regulate spiritual relationships as if they were things that could be measured. Only the Outside of the temple (our physical bodies and physical labor) can be measured by men: not the real fruits or our real relationships.
I guess you’re right. You’ve already done an excellent job sticking up for Preterism/Partial Preterism when the rest of us were toddlers in our Futurism. I guess you want to stay there. But there is a movement that is numerically greater than the Futurist movement… that is searching for answers. And Partial Preterism doesn’t speak to them where they are. If Partial Preterists would walk us through Revelation, IN ORDER, and explain it to us… that would at least give a lot of insight that we could take with us. We already agree on politics.
Umm, Gary, I just cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Last time I checked this was a book. Last time I checked this was a book written by people who lead a Church with over 1 billion members. The reason there are not that many “best sellers” about eschatology from Catholic theologians is that they don’t really think there is much to say. All visions of the ultimate future are a pre-construction that can only be held very tentatively. What is not in doubt is the basic outline.
Come to think of it Michael, maybe you & I don’t agree as much as I thought. Roman Catholics would definately HATE my Protestant Historicist take on Revelation. Historicism it strongly invalidates the Papacy from being “Head of the Universal Church” at the outset. That would probably be enough to get the Pope upset: calling his supposed ‘authority’ an image of antichrist spirit in the church (if not THE ultimate image of such).
As Dispensationalism fails… we will end up with a smorgasbord of views. And out of that smorgasbord, I do believe that a Postmillenial Historicism will take root…with a strong emphasis on organic house-church theology. It’s time for the Reformation to be completed, at least doctrinally. Western Civilization has explored themes of individualism for the last 500 years, and it’s time to find the bedrock of personal individualism. Who Jesus is, and HOW He relates to individual people in the church.
Hi Michael!
The 1 billion members of the RCC you mentioned do not necessarily subscribe to a futurist amillennialist type of eschatology as taught by your CCC(668-677). In our own larger family, circle of friends & community alone where the religion of Roman Catholicism dominates, I could hear them talk about end times issues using the “lingua franca” & the common stock-in-trade terminologies of the popular Pre-trib Rapture, Dispensational Premillennialism. Vocabularies like: Pre-Trib Rapture, 7 years of Tribulation, the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the 7 Years of Tribulation, the Abomination of Desolation, the 1 day of God is equal to 1000 years, the 10 nation confederacy as the 10 Horns of the Beast, the Gog & Magog, Armageddon, Russia as the “Biblical “Rosh allied with all the Muslim nations-spearheading the Gog & Magog attack against the modern Israel in the near future, Israel as the holy & chosen people of God and many more, are but an indication that they are more influenced by the broadcast media (including internet) than the Roman Catholic’s CCC(668-677). Guess where do you think they got those info from? From the CCC(668-677)? Definitely not! They got it from the pop tv-vangelists & preachers from the cable, internet & our local stations here in MANILA, PHILIPPINES. Perhaps it’s not too strong to say that, we could be a micro-cosmic exemplar of the bigger picture.
Names like John Hagee, Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Greg Laurie, John Macarthur, Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey (& the cast of TBN) & of course Tim Lahaye are but almost a household names here-depending on one’s favorite/s. These RCs remain as faithful members of the RC church while being converted to the popular end-times eschatology(w/c is John Darby’s, Dispy Premil)! This is why I totally disagree with your statement that Gary & others are not doing a good job. I say, YES!, these guys are doing a good job. The wealth of biblical & well researched info they provide to their readers are very timely & educational and help stem the tide of erroneous, fallacious & unbiblical yet ever-popular teachings like John Darby’s Dispy Premil. And mind you,they make the bulk of my “ammo” here in Manila. If I have a potential convert to Preterism & Postmillennianism who are inquiring for more of related-info, I just lead them to websites of Gary’s AV, DJ & Ken Gentry’s Nicene Council, James Jordan’s Biblical Horizons, Peter Leithart’s Credenda, Monergism, Theologia and others. And by God’s grace, I’m doing some progress here in Manila. BTW, these AV guys taught me also that Eschatology is more than an end times issue, it is actually a Worldview; that’s why AV has maintained a balanced biblical worldview on real world issues.
I hope Michael this input of mine will help you better understand the reality out there. To Gary & the AV boys, carry on guys…!
I was raised Roman Catholic, went to Catholic schools, served as an altar boy. The only eschatology we ever got was on the Fatima Prophecies. Yes, a catechism is a book. Go into your local bookstore and ask for one. Barnes & Noble might have one. I have a few books on RC eschatology. Some of them are preterist, but then they go off into the usual RC extra-biblical doctrines. Scott Hahn is a good example of this.
Like what? The idea that the anti-Christ needs to come right before the parousia as stated in the Thessalonian correspondence? Preterists still have not come up with an explanation of how to relate 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2. If the “man of sin” is Nero, then the parousia occurred at AD 70, and we should all be hyper-preterists. This is despite every witness from the Apostolic Fathers saying these events were future.
I know you feud with the Escondido people, and I am sure you’ve heard these same points from Kim Riddlebarger. I am still waiting for an answer. If it all happened in AD 70, I guess hyper-preterism is the preferred option, rather than a heresy.
I think guys like Scott Hahn (who as you know used to be a Christian Reconstructionist Presbyterian) and Brant Pitre have all the same problems you folks do when they try to explain the Olivet Discourse, in particular the “coming on clouds” language, as being about AD 70. I am still waiting for an explanation for how this could be right, while at the same time we don’t need to read ALL apocalyptic language in the NT as being about AD 70, as the hyper-preterists say. At least dispensationalists are Christians. I don’t know what the hyper-preterists are.
We cannot fault him for his hope, we also have hope – that the pendulum will never swing back his direction ever again.
Rushdoony, Gary DeMar & Gary North helped a few people like me shake loose from the mind-captivity of Dispensationalism. This is a time for courageous questioning & wonderful exploring.
I just read one of the most awesome articles on eschatology (believe it or not, it was published in Christianity Today):
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/february/jesus-afterlife.html
As Kris Vallotton says (published Jan 27, 2012):
“1.I will not embrace an end-time worldview that re-empowers a disempowered devil.
2.I will not accept an eschatology that takes away my children’s future, and creates mindsets that undermine the mentality of leaving a legacy.
3.I will not tolerate any theology that sabotages the clear command of Jesus to make disciples of all nations and the Lord’s Prayer that earth would be like heaven.
4.I will not allow any interpretation of the scriptures that destroys hope for the nations and undermines our command to restore ruined cities.
5.I will not embrace an eschatology that changes the nature of a good God.
6.I refuse to embrace any mindset that celebrates bad news as a sign of the times and a necessary requirement for the return of Jesus.
7.I am opposed to any doctrinal position that pushes the promises of God into a time zone that can’t be obtained in my generation and therefore takes away any responsibility I have to believe God for them in my lifetime.
8.I don’t believe that the last days are a time of judgment, nor do I believe God gave the church the right to call for wrath for sinful cities. There is a day of judgment in which GOD will judge man, not us.”
Noteworthy to mention that this is the same Dr. Michael Vlach (Progressive dispensationalist) that Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary president Dr. Dave Doran invited to speak at the seminary in 2010. See William R. Rice Lecture Series- http://www.dbts.edu/5-1/5-14.asp
“Vlach’s comment that ‘more emphasis should be given to dispensational commentaries and works on hermeneutics’ is spot on. The books and commentaries that are being published today are written by amateurs who repeat worn out arguments that could never stand up to scrutiny by a preterits.”
Still the classic would be Dr. Charles Ryrie’s, Dispensationalism: Revised & Expanded. I recommend it for every student of the Bible’s book shelf no matter where he presently positions himself in this debate.
LM
Did the Church replace Israel? This is simple to answer. Jeremiah 24 predicted a division in Judah, into Good Fig Jews and into Bad Fig Jews. The Good Fig Jews were Peter, James, John, Mary, Martha and Paul. They were all from Israel. What became of them? Simple, they were born again after the resurrection, filled with the Spirit at Pentecost, and became the Church. THE CHURCH DIDN’T REPLACE ISRAEL. Rather, the Good Figs from Israel became the Church, much in the way that Butterflies hatch out of Caterpillar cocoons.
Bad Fig Jews according to Jesus in John 3:36 and John 15:6 were left under the wrath of God, have suffered much torments, including being cut off from the vine of God’s kingdom and thrown into one fire after another, and that will continue until they repent of their sin of rejecting the Passover Lamb and His blood and receive the same, which I don’t think many of them will.
The Israel in Romans 9-11 was the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel from Hosea 1 and they began being saved on Pentecost and by now is mostly completed and is basically Church history.
Amen, Dean.
Those who were led into truth (and reason) by the Spirit … were the ekklesia. The mixed-multitude Jews were those who were lukewarm in faith – even if they grumbled a lot or tried to run the show. This included many of the external priesthood. But the real priesthood simply transitioned into more power and grace – when they could EXPLAIN and BELIEVE IN the fulfillment of the law.
The outer man is the old man. The Spirit is the New Wine. Those who follow the Spirit can allow their minds to adapt and grow into the House that the Spirit requires to do its work in the world. The outer must die and break, so that the inner can live and abound.
God could raise up CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM out of STONES! Real, physical stones…non-descendents of ANY human…can (by God) be made into children of Abraham. But some of the biological children of Abraham (even those who tried to keep the law – but didn’t recognize Jesus Christ) were called children of Satan!
Faith in Jesus, and faith in the law… are two seperate things. One makes you prophetic (the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy). The other (faith in the law) makes you a priest unto the law. Since the law is a testimony about how we need Jesus… those priests who didn’t recognize Jesus were never priests unto HIM. They were never true Israel. It’s a heart-thing. It’s a Spirit-thing. And only GOD can make new, even as the old wineskin is breaking apart.
But make no mistake about this (I address the hyper-preterists or full-preterists). The church is not mature yet. Maturity is in Christ – whose Spirit resides within us, and whose mind IS BEING MADE in us. And God’s spiritual work with us is not done yet. After saving us, and we are being saved… He is now teaching us how to exercise dominion over our natural, fallen flesh… and over a world corrupted by sin. We are to put all things under the feet of Jesus Christ – and His Spirit is empowering us with grace to do exactly that. We must learn the ways of grace & grace-ful dominion…God’s way, not our statist/humanist/control-freak way.
Gary,
You say:
“Non-dispensationalists like me would say that all the promises made to Israel have been fulfilled, and the redemption of Israel according to those promises made it possible for Gentiles to be grafted into an already existing Jewish assembly of believers that the Bible calls the ekklēsia, incorrectly translated as “church.””
So, are you saying that a physical bodily Resurrection at the end of time WAS NOT a promise made to Israel?
Can you please clarify?
Tag-team!
It seems to me that Partial Preterism is perched between FULL Preterism and Historicism. One ends practically everything in 70ad…and all we have left is the status quo. The other says: 70ad was merely a milestone in a continuous story.
On one hand, hyper-preterism wants to close the lid at 70ad…and admit ABSOLUTELY NO MORE additional fulfillments after 70ad. End of story. On the other hand…Partial Preterism agrees with historicism that there are some things yet unfulfilled. And historicism (as a whole) isn’t picky. Problem is historicism has a different identity for the Temple, and an entirely different take on what REALLY occurred in the last 2000 years. While the people of God learned & progressed, some wicked stuff was happening in the Temple of God…using people’s own faith as fuel for a conquering system that enslaved minds. Partial Preterists seem unwilling to open the lid to the last 2000 years being ONE STORY described in Revelation. They (like the futurists) insert a prophetic VOID between 70ad and… some point in the “future” where everything inexplicably changes.
The thing I don’t like about hyper-preterism is: No gifts of the Spirit. No future fulfillments after 70ad. Supposedly an air-tight box. Charismatics will NEVER, EVER accept this. It’s false. And it has an improper view of the Temple/ekklesia between 30ad – 70ad. Which is the very basis of all New Covenant logic. Hyper-preterists neglect the fact that the prophets & the law-system both functioned simultaneously and apart from each other even in the time of the Old. So the end of the law-temple-system doesn’t require the end of the prophetic. And also, since 30ad established the church…70ad was merely the passing away of the old now-unuseful shell.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ in His Story is how He is revealed in His Church, through the Holy Spirit. That is how we mature. He reigns right now & we are seated with Him. There will come a day when we understand and live these truths even better than we do, today. In that day…when it’s all explained & out in the open, you could say that it meets its chronological fulfillment. Just as the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world was a mystery of symbols to the Jewish ekklesia…until 30ad.
“If Joel predicted what was happening, and the dispensationalists claim that Pentecost is the beginning of the Ekklēsia Age, then the ekklēsia is not a mystery; it is the fulfillment of Bible prophecies made first and foremost to Israel. The ekklēsia is not something new. The ekklēsia — made up of Israelites — was in the “wilderness” (7:38).”
The ekklesia is not something new. And the Holy Spirit did come upon people in the Old Testament. And people believed by faith during the time of the Old Testament – and it was accounted to them for righteousness. By Faith we are saved…even during the chronological time of the old. The practice of ekklesia was active in the Old (but not nearly as fulfilling). BUT the vision of what the ekklesia WAS, was not yet revealed. That took time.
Old Testament saints were saved by faith (just as we are) because such faith was in the unseen cross, and unillustrated truths. In chronological time, the story was told and illustrated for these invisible truths – so that people would be without excuse. The TRUTH was that the temple of God was always His People. Such truth was not illustrated (and brought into chronological fruition) until 30ad. Then there was a window in which to acknowledge this truth: that the tabernacle of God is with men who believe. Immanuel. From then on, the ekklesia had a NEW self-consciousness. They KNEW what they had placed their faith in, all along. They recognized the patterns and the fulfillments. The moniker “THE Temple of GOD” was used for a manufactured temple in the Old…because most people were not yet culturally mature enough to embrace the truth that the symbolism implied. But after the symbolism was fulfilled, then there was no more reason to call the manufactured temple, “THE Temple of GOD”. It was the ekklesia. There was only 1 temple OF GOD at the time 2 Thess was written. Hence, the word “the.” And it was prophecied that the man of sin would sit in it.
I don’t believe in dispensations. I don’t think that people alive during the time of the Old were saved (or even had a different experience) than those who were saved during the time of the New. The difference comes because there is more chronological revelation after 30ad. Hence, faith is intensified by being able to stare at Jesus Christ, and KNOW upon what we stand, and how we follow after God with humility and power. Because of this intensified faith, the Holy Spirit is given more free reign to be expressed…whereas before, the container (of mens minds) was too restrictive. New wineskins for New wine. The New was present in the Old, but it wasn’t understood as well.
God doesn’t change. The way He deals with us doesn’t change. WE change.
The gifts were active (apart from the law) in the OT. They are active (in a time of revealed grace) today. The only change has been in the minds of believers – who have SEEN (in history) what Jesus did. But it was done before the foundation of the world. The problem was, right after the exodus: the Jews still had a slave mindset. (Give us a statist master – or give us a drunken party.) They needed to be schooled. They were not culturally mature enough to understand, accept, and embrace the CALL of God upon Israel…in all of its fullness and glory. We are still developing more in that regard, TODAY!! Israel is still maturing! As we STRIVE TOGETHER for the unity of the faith. A faith that was once and for all delivered & revealed (illustrated) in Jesus Christ in history.
I am not dispensationalist. I am not preterist. And my view seems (to me) to make sense! God does not change. The temple of God was always His Believers. But He needed something to school them with: hence the law, and its external structure.
2 Thessalonians 2 talks about THE temple. There’s only one. THE temple OF GOD. Not “a temple of God”.
So obviously it’s speaking of the ekklesia as THE ONLY temple of GOD. Because there is only one.
The hermeneutic switched on us. …and nobody told us. The hermeneutic switched at the cross, when the veil was torn. The veil which seperated the ekklesia from direct participation with God. That veil WAS the manufactured temple-system (symbolically). It was not mandatory, after the cross. The hermeneutic switched from the temple of God being the brick temple to being the ekklesia. Jesus Christ was revealed IN His People…and this was made VERY WELL KNOWN at Pentecost. Tongues were a sign to the unbeliever (those who didn’t believe that the Spirit of God was in operation in “those people”). And still, some didn’t believe – and saw their old system fall apart. It was no longer the temple OF GOD when it was in denial of Jesus Christ.
This new Temple (the real one) was now distinguishable from the Old. The Temple of God was based on accepting the completed work that the symbolism had been trying to teach and imply. Those who didn’t accept Jesus had time to think for 40 years.
And after those 40 years were completed… then the Old vanished. And the New continued. There was not supposed to be a falling away (toward Rome, pride, self-exaltation). But it happened. And the wolves were more clever than the sheep of their generation. Early protestants knew the danger of the Roman Catholic Heirarchy…that’s why they called it antichrist. (Unfortunately, they copied too many of its ways, themselves. The WHORE of Babylon, that harlot prostituted to political power, has many daughters still trying to “lord it over” God’s ekklesia, His saints.)
And for a long time, the actions of the Holy Spirit directly leading an individual… were not appreciated. Individualism (and the active Holy Spirit moving inside of the individual) were forgotten. Everything action & opinion was “supposed to be” first cleared through the heirarchy/s. But now… in America, China, and all over the world… Christians are beginning to re-discover their individual relationship with God, that God is still ACTIVE, that God speaks and loves, that His Word is still true, and that we can walk just as Jesus and His first followers walked.
No matter what hard times come… we are advancing through His Story.
Stick a label on something and it tidies up quite neatly, eh? “God never changes” therefore toss the whole dispensational concept out…
Well, God was born a baby in Bethlehem: sort of a change.
When the church loses sight of the uniqueness of The Apostle Paul it loses sight of its own uniqueness and therefore its place in His plan. Fact is, ‘dispensation’ is a good Bible word, found in the most Christ glorifying of scriptures.
And there are many dispensationalists who do not list themselves among Acts 2 for the beginning of the church. We are certainly not silly.
Finally! Artskoe, it’s good to see a dispensationalist willing to enter into the conversation on this website. It doesn’t happen very often.
The Bible says that God never changes. Relative to time/history, He does not change. It was God’s Word that entered into History as the Son of God. God’s Spirit moves, as well. He is active. But His character and nature never changes, relative to time. But His form of redemption never changes, either. And through Jesus Christ, His interactions with men have been consistent from after the fall through the present day.
In Adam all human beings FELL from the ideal order. In JESUS CHRIST we all have redemption. God is dealing with one fallen nature of mankind… and he has one remedy. And this was the same in ALL time periods. But fallen men (and the believing ekklesia) didn’t always clearly SEE this, because it wasn’t illustrated for them with a live-action motion picture. Jesus is the Image of the invisible Father. He came to BECOME our salvation (chronologically) and to illustrate the salvation Order (kairological & timeless) that had already been established before time was created.
Now, the church is growing into the revelation of what she was, all along. We are (hopefully) having greater & greater comprehension of what happened at the cross, burial, resurrection. (And ascension, Pentecost, all that.)
The NAR (as erroneous as it is) was a step in the right direction. That’s what angered me, by Joel McDurmon’s one-sided critique of them a while back. There is a lot of good to be found in ANY movement away from Dispensationalism! We need to encourage such breaking-free! Not simply bash it. We need to encourage an exploring and open mind, a thinking mind, and a critiquing mind.
When dispensationalists “wake up” they don’t usually revert to Preterism automatically. They begin (as I did) to re-assemble a half-competent belief system from whatever truths that they ARE sure of. They begin to explore. It’s a process that ends up looking like a smorgasbord. But one thing that most will not abandon: their belief in the present-day prophetic and healing gifts, and their faith in seeing Jesus at some point in the future.
I don’t know about post-dispensational books not selling. I have been an avid fan of Destiny Image publisher since the 1990′s. They published some of Wagner’s material…and they publish a wide variety of material that contradict with each other. To me, this publisher (along with people like Rick Joyner, and Kris Vallotton and Bill Johnson) are on the “cutting edge” in terms of prophetic paradigm. Rick Warren certainly has never acted like Antichrist is right around the corner, either. I have read MANY articles from the dispy types calling HIM out as the potential antichrist (or at least of the same spirit, leading to the centralizing of religion and apostasy). My point is: there is a BIG, H-U-G-E world out there, between the Preterists and the hard-line (old) Futurists. It’s worth exploring the possibilities. God is still active in the world today both above and through people. Things are still moving along. History never froze in a limbo-zone.
As yet, many have not re-discovered Protestant Historicism or organic house-church theology. But I guarantee that is where it is heading. Logic (and trends) demand it. But then it won’t just be about eschatology or society. It will be about ecclesiology and our identity AS the Church/Body/Temple of Jesus Christ on earth. It will be hard for those not used to adapting, to adapt.
The Dispensational Captivity is slowing but surely coming to an end. Its “literal” approach to Revelation is laughable. They say that Satan is still in heaven accusing us day and night before the throne of God (Rev. 12:1-12). My Bible says that stopped at AD 30 (John 12:31-32).
Duncan, I believe you are basing your conclusion on the Greek “nun” (sorry I do not know how to get the Greek keyboard so I used the phonetic spelling) in John 12:31. “Nun” is translated “now”, but it can also be translated “soon”. It is actually translated “henceforth” in a number of places. Though this passage should not be discounted in the discussion, it is not entirely conclusive either.
JD,
I have no problem with “soon” or “henceforth” The cross was about to happen (soon) when Jesus spoke those words. What I do not see is any meaning of nun (I will trust your Greek, I am too lazy to look it up
that would speak of something that would not happen for thousands of years in the future.