American History pulpit

Published on October 3rd, 2011 | by Gary DeMar

59

Church Bullied by Liberal Group to Shut Up or Else

Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AC) “is calling on the Internal Revenue Service to look into allegations that Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tenn., is violating restrictions for posting a link to a pro-family organization on its website.” What restrictions? The First Amendment does not prohibit churches from speaking out on any issue. The amendment is so clear that the people at AU almost never cite it:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Notice that the prohibition is directed at Congress, our nation’s national law-making body. It can’t establish a religion and it can’t prohibit the free exercise of religion. Here’s what Rob Boston, Communications Director with AU, had to say: “A church cannot link or direct people to an organization telling people how to vote. . . . All nonprofits, including churches, cannot endorse or oppose candidates. The IRS does warn nonprofits about linking to campaign-related websites.” To prohibit a church from linking to any site for any reason is a violation of the First Amendment. Notice that the First Amendment gives everybody, churches included, the right to speak about religion, write about religion, congregate about religion, and “petition the government for a redress of grievances,” the very thing this church is trying to do and Mr. Boston says it can’t do.

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To say it bluntly and boldly, Mr. Boston is lying. His goal is to intimidate pastors and churches to remain silent. He knows that if conservative pastors because to address issues from a biblical perspective, it would mean the near end of liberal domination in America. No church has ever lost its tax-exempt status for speaking out on issues or endorsing candidates, and he knows it.

Former IRS Commissioner Mark Everson warned churches not to speak out on political issues. He claimed that churches that violate IRS regulations could lose their tax-exempt status and be forced to pay a ten percent excise tax on all donations. I would like to see the IRS try to defend the position in court based on the First Amendment. It can’t be done, and Mr. Boston knows it. Notice that Mr. Boston cites some IRS publication, not the First Amendment.

Intimidating churches has been going on for a long time. Barry Lynn, Executive Director of AU, has been monitoring the content of Sunday sermons since 2004. If these self-appointed snitches don’t like what they hear, that is, if what a pastor says is “too political” and contrary to a liberal political agenda, they will send video and audio tapes to the IRS for investigation. If enough churches challenged the supposed prohibitions, the IRS wouldn’t know what to do. At the moment, the fear factor is enough to keep churches in check.

There are no constitutional prohibitions against churches speaking out on political issues or endorsing candidates. We got into this mess when in 1954 a law was rammed through Congress by then-Senator Lyndon Johnson to restrict churches from speaking freely on topics they have addressed for nearly two millennia. The following is from the IRS:

The ban on political campaign activity by charities and churches was created by Congress more than a half century ago. The Internal Revenue Service administers the tax laws written by Congress and has enforcement authority over tax-exempt organizations. Here is some background information on the political campaign activity ban and the latest IRS enforcement statistics regarding its administration of this congressional ban.
In 1954, Congress approved an amendment by Sen. Lyndon Johnson to prohibit 501(c)(3) organizations, which includes charities and churches, from engaging in any political campaign activity. To the extent Congress has revisited the ban over the years, it has in fact strengthened the ban. The most recent change came in 1987 when Congress amended the language to clarify that the prohibition also applies to statements opposing candidates.

This so-called ban is a direct violation of the First Amendment. The First Amendment states, “Congress shall make no law. . . .” In 1954, Congress made a law prohibiting churches from speaking out on political issues and endorsing candidates. The logic is simple. Since Congress passed such a law, then Congress violated the Constitution. This makes the law null and void.

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If you are a pastor who believes in the freedoms outlined in the First Amendment and want to challenge these leftist organizations and the IRS, then I have a deal for you. The Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group, will defend you.

In response to more than 50 years of threats and intimidation by activist groups wielding the Johnson Amendment as a sword against the Church, ADF began the Pulpit Initiative in 2008. The goal of the Pulpit Initiative is simple: have the Johnson Amendment declared unconstitutional — and once and for all remove the ability of the IRS to censor what a pastor says from the pulpit.

ADF is actively seeking to represent churches or pastors who are under investigation by the IRS for violating the Johnson Amendment by preaching biblical Truth in a way that expresses support for — or opposition to — political candidates. ADF represents all of its clients free of charge.

Don’t be bullied. It’s time to take a stand for Jesus Christ. Your future and the future of your children are at stake. If you want more information, go to the Alliance Defense Fund site at http://speakupmovement.org/church/LearnMore/details/4702

One last thing. The purpose of Christian involvement in civil government is to decrease the power of the State at every level.

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About the Author

Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. He is the author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, His most recent book is Exposing the Real Last Days Scoffers. Gary lives in Marietta, Georgia, with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and four grandchildren, Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).



59 Responses to Church Bullied by Liberal Group to Shut Up or Else

  1. Blockade Runner says:

    I get the strong impression that the individual posting the main article, and a half-dozen of those who post in response, are ‘professionals’ in the ministry. undoubtedly with MDiv behind their names. They are having a conversation amongst themselves online, in the presence of whoever else may wish to bask in their brilliance. It’s like observing two men arguing. The rest of us, and our contributions are invisible. Suggestion, why don’t you just meet each other at the coffee shop, and discuss this face to face?

  2. John Hand says:

    I was going to comment, but after scrolling down and seeing these looooooooooooooooooooooog posts you guys are making, I said ‘no way.’ Too much to read to catch up on and comment. Ever hear of getting on, getting to the point, and getting off?

  3. Lionel says:

    First of all I am a conservative Christian. I am not trying to defend Americans United etc. I think it is not necessarily the Constitution that is involved here but the IRS rules about tax exempt organizations. You still have your freedom of speech but may lose your tax exempt status (making your organization just like everyone else). What I wonder is why organizations like Americans United etc. aren’t challenging other churches which “preach” politics all the time from their pulpits – such as Jermiah Wright and others. Politicians and those involved in politics are filling pulpits all the time and there are no complaints. I think the enforcement of the IRS rules is very one-sided.

  4. John Hand says:

    Barry Lynn is a real sleezeball. He only selects conservative churches to go after. Watch this video if you want to see what happens in a liberal church, with no consequences from Lynn. Shot during Hillary’s run against Obama, IN OBAMA’S CHURCH, the church Obama attended for 20 years but never heard any political speech, etc., according to Obama. Also this video will give you a strong inkling of how ‘they’ think about…’us.’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA7ULgcPyf0&feature=related

  5. JOSEPH OF NEW JERSEY says:

    Now is the time to start counter sueing all who are atheiests and seclurists..For trying to stop our freedom of speach….Not one of these following the luciferian way of unbleive would go after muslims and jains buddists shintos but because they are of satans lot.. and cant stand the name of Jesus and all that he is ….and also they will not go after Black Liberation theologies ( j Wright) turn the tables and counter sue…..Just one mans opinion…God Bless and Praise Jesus see you in the rapture….

  6. haroldson says:

    Every one has a few bones in their closet. And I have yet to meet a perfect being, People have different views and seldom do all agree., You may not respect a persons view but show the person some respect for having the will to have one, This all seems to revolve around the government setting laws that are out of line , Give the white house some of your knowledge, That is who needs it.

  7. Dan W Rykard says:

    It looks like some people need to read the First Amendment and understand what it is saying, no where does it say a pastor or anyone else in church can not speak on political issues.
    Have a Blessed Day, God Loves You

  8. Dave Ticzkus says:

    Mr Rob Boston has an interesting name. Maybe it should be Rob Everyone (of freedom of speech) instead. Why is Jeramiah Wright’s (OBUMMER’S)church still operating? He open speaks communism…what is wrong with a pastor telling his congregation what acandidates views are?? What about ACORN telling hookers how to beatthe system…which is more detrimental to our society? PC is politacal Control and is NOT correct.

    • Jo Anne says:

      OH MY GOD! If they only knew your real past! Amazing. The crap you still believe, the misery you site in the name of what ever. Totally amazing. If only people knew the wreckage. Only little minds totally use and abuse, and totally image that they are right, even blessed. God help us.

  9. FED UP says:

    Dear Mr. Ron Boston,

    Go to Hell…. sooner!

    • Brandon Hoel says:

      As if wanting someone to go to hell is a Christian virtue….rather than wanting them to be saved from hell.

  10. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    Carol you state:

    “As to the guy complaining of Contracts…” I have not complained about contracts. A contract is good. License is good. There is nothing inherently wrong with either. A contract binds two or more parties to an agreement. It creates obligations and duties that are enforceable or otherwise recognizable at law.

    This is the problem. Christians entering into contracts with the state; whether its by a marriage license, a church with a 501(c)3 or a church, by incorporating with the state. Doing so, places a Christian man or woman or church under a different master, a different set of laws, which are outside of the “reach” of the Constitution. Now a Christian/church is under the laws of the Corporation, which is the creation of the state, who is the lord and master of what it creates.

    For a Christian or church, this contract creates duties and obligations that conflict with his first duty, which is to the Lord of Lord’s and King of kings.

    Most Christians would probably not get a marriage license from the state, if they knew all the obligations and duties that they make themselves subject to and obligated to perform. If I knew what that marriage license from the state would have bound me to, I would have had to be insane to bind myself to it. Because of that agreement with the state, I lost, big time! Because of that license agreement with the state, my children lost big time! Because of that contract with the state my family was torn apart! Our marriage could probably have been saved, if it were not for that contract!

    Hopefully, most churches would not enter into agreement with the state if they knew what that contract would bind them too.

    Carol you state:

    “And then going to an out of the states bride, who knows nothing of the laws and a binding contract, for his next lifetime caregiver explains a lot as well.”

    What does that explain? My wife is a committed Christian. She loves the Lord and His word. She teaches Sunday school classes for the children each Sunday. She has a Saturday children’s ministry. She has started a business she is working very hard with, that is starting to do well. She has graduated from college and understands business. She does know a few things about our Constitution, maybe more then most Americans.

    How do you know what my wife knows? She may have grown up in a house with a dirt floor, but she is better educated then many folks I know. As far as knowing about laws and contracts, she now knows more than most Americans know.

    There is much more I could add. Please, next time, before you make statements about things you are totally ignorant about, before you try to malign someone, about facts you know nothing about, please keep those comments to yourself.

  11. Pepper Bruce says:

    This is a great article by Gary and I enjoyed reading a response from Michael Riemer about the unfortunate entanglements that come from the 501(c)3 tax free status. But I believe the church needs to remember that even with a 501(c)3 contract with the government it has no authority to free itself from its obligations to the King of Kings. No matter what kind of contract a church has, it must continue to speak out on all relevant Biblical issues. Without this, the church ceases to be the church.

    • Michael Earl Riemer says:

      Pepper Bruce, you state:

      “But I believe the church needs to remember that even with a 501(c)3 contract with the government it has no authority to free itself from its obligations to the King of Kings.”

      You are correct Pepper Bruce. The Church of Jesus Christ has no authority to free itself from its obligations to its Master Jesus Christ.

      However, I have been involved with government agencies in the past such as the child support division of the state. Even when I did everything right and did not owe them a dime, even when I drafted a letter stating that fact, even when my former wife signed that letter (she agreed with me) stating I did not owe her a dime, and had actually overpaid, even when I had a signed and dated letter from my employer stating all my obligations had been paid, that all and any money that was to be paid had been paid and an overpayment had also been made (taken off my paycheck), and even when I had the check stubs showing the money had been taken off of my paychecks. That was still not enough!

      Finally I got it straightened out. I had to pay a small amount of money to get the payment records from child support. I had to hire a law firm to read the records and explain it to me, because I could not make “heads or tails” of the pile of records. All in all, it still took four trips to the court house to get it all straightened out. During one of those appearances before a court commissioner, the commissioner and the lawyer for child support accused me of being in collusion with my employer to defraud the state. Yes, the commissioner accused me of trying to defraud the state, when in front of her on her desk, was a pile of documentation showing that in fact, I overpaid and did not owe a dime. That was not the first nor last time I had to take a trip to the court house to get problems with child support taken care of, none of which were my fault nor was any money ever due them.

      This is the point. Why does a church bother getting in bed with the government? Even if the church follows the guidelines to the letter, does not step one inch over the line, the IRS may still attempt to fine them when they think there has been a violation of their muddy rules and regulations. Even if the church wins its case, think of all the time, maybe years, the pain and suffering, and money it will spend defending itself in a courtroom, a place where the law has no jurisdiction over a church! Again, it is an issue of contract, and not the First Amendment.
      Again, there is no law that the court can deal with, if a church is involved. But where there is an issue of contract, or license, then the First Amendment is not an issue and has no place in any argument.

      Yes, there is always that sword of intimidation handing over the head of a church with a 501(c)3 status. Why should a church always worry about stepping over the IRS guidelines in preaching the gospel? Why this self imposed gag? Why get together with other churches, why have special Sundays spending (wasting) time on this issue. Why have law firms “on call” dealing with the 501(c)3 status. Why spend any time on this non-issue. Why carry around a ball and chain and hope the ball does not fall on your foot, why sit on a tack (501(c)3 and complain that it hurts, get off of the tack and remove it from your rear end, GET RID OF THAT STATUS!!!

      A church voluntarily got the 501(c)3 status, it can voluntarily get rid of that status which it does not need in the first place. The church is non-taxble!!! It can get rid of its corporate status and get the government out of its bed, where its ugly foot should not have been in the first place!!!!!

      When you get in bed with a prostitute expect to get screwed. If a church gets in bed with the IRS, well…. The IRS is not the bad guy here. It is doing just what it does, that’s its nature. In a case where the church broke its contract with the IRS through its 501(c)3 status, I would stand on the side of the IRS against that corporation (church), that broke the rules. The church in this case is its own worst enemy.

      SO SIMPLE!!!! Men, get some courage, Pastors get some courage, just go and do it, freedom is wonderful!!!!!! Pastors, be the leaders you are called to be!!!! “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me” (Philippians 4:13).

    • Said says:

      let it be the ppeloe will come around. a woman in the litergy..maybe as a reader but…if something has worked for thousands of years why do we always try and change it. ….'let it be"

  12. OregonGreg says:

    Well done John! To add fuel to your fire: The first of the Bill of Rights is really not that complicated is it? The Feds can’t establish a religion and can’t prohibit the free exercise of religion. Notice that the legal restraint is only on the Federal Government. Churches are not told to keep out of politics.

    As for Mr. Riemer,

    I have read all of your posts with interest. Yours is a bold and principled stand. To be fair, however, it is very safe for you to be bold and brave with other peoples congregations. I have seen brave soldiers quake and quail at he thought of having a run-in with the IRS. Personally, unless you have assets to lose, and a Ministry to defend, it may be a little too easy for you to tell others to walk away from their tax exempt status in favor of greater political activism.

    My view is you have jumped past the deeper problem. The problem is, actually, that not nearly enough churches are in trouble for exercising their freedom. There should be thousands of pulpits aflame with the Spirit of God, rebuking the powers that be on logical Biblical grounds. Were it not for such fire from the Pulpits, the Founders would have never had the courage to commit:

    “Our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor” to that risky scheme called “The War for Independence”.

    The revolution started in church gatherings and spread to the body politic later.
    Now the soft, comfortable, diplomatic church leaders “just go along to get along.”

    Many are ignorant, lazy or just “adverse to confrontation”. Others mistakenly believe that they must not “dirty themselves” with something so secular (perhaps vulgar and divisive too) as politics.

    To cut to the chase: Once the Clergy is mobilized for the mission, the legal stuff is easy.

    We pass a Bill that states the the burden of proof is on the Government to show that that they have any right to tax any “establishment of religion”, with or without a an official corporate entity or IRS designation. Churches must be allowed to organize themselves into legal corporations for practical administrative reasons. i.e. so that they can open bank accounts, take title to land,vehicles, get utilities and insurance in the church name. That is how real life works. There is nothing evil about incorporating a congregation into one legal “body”. I do agree with you that Churches should not have to go begging the IRS for the waiver on taxes. But if we are going to take so bold a stand, it is worth our time to codify and affirm the obvious original intent of the Constitution into law. If not for such a firebrand as you, perhaps for the sake of the less brave. As the court so accurately ruled “the power to tax is the power to destroy”. That power must constantly be restrained by us, the owners of the Republic.

    God Bless you and God Bless America

    • Michael Earl Riemer says:

      OregonGreg,

      I know personally, a pastor, Matthew Trewhella who has done just that, no IRS 501(c)3 status and no permission whatsoever from the government to do any of his Christian ministry. That includes marrying Christians without a state minister’s license and marrying folks without a state marriage license. The state threatened him, but seeing that no law applies to a non-licensed pastor, non-501(c)3 Christian Church, there is nothing that they can do. Case closed!!! It is that simple. Of course, if other Churches would do the same, there may be a few that would have problems with the powers that be.

      I am also sure that other Christians ministries (not churches) that have a 501(c)3 tax status might find it a lot harder to get out from under the paws of the IRS, to prove that the First Amendment does apply to them. But it would be worth the effort to try.

      As far as having assets to lose, I have fought with the IRS, state and federal for years. I lost much, close to everything. Not only thousands of dollars, other assets as well. Such as time spent in researching, writing letters and so forth. The correspondence that I have to and from the IRS is almost a foot thick.

      When I started to study the Constitution, I realized that I did not owe an income tax. I had no revenue taxable income. So I stopped filing tax returns. The sixteenth Amendment did not change the taxing statutes in the Constitution (long story so I will not go into it). Well, after a while the state and federal came down hard. Also a long story I will not go into. After about eight years of studying, writing letters, using the Freedom of Information Act, and other statutes dealing with the issue at hand, after getting my IRS files decoded, after talking to many “tax” lawyers, agents at the IRS and others, I finally realized something.

      It is much more complicated then the following, but this is as simple as I can make it.

      If you read my other posts you should know what I am about to say. The issue comes down to this — license/contract. It is true, what most people earn in the U.S. is not revenue taxable. That is a fact! It is plain if you read and understand the taxing statutes of Constitution. Now this is where the problem lies. Contract. The invisible adhesion contract that you unknowingly entered into with the government, the IRS, state and federal and other agencies.

      You do that in a number of ways. One way is when you use a Social Security number. If matters not who applied for it. But the first time you use it, you unknowingly submit to and subject yourself to all 9,833 pages of the IRS code book (January 2001 edition) with its rules, regulations, statutes and authority of the IRS and other agencies of the federal and state governments. The first time you file that 1040 tax return, you have now declared that you are in fact a taxpayer and subject to the jurisdiction, rules and regulations of the IRS. You signed that form under penalty of perjury.

      Now when you realize, like I did, that I had no revenue taxable income many stop filing tax returns. But you can’t stop filing, for you, under penalty of perjury stated you were a taxpayer and what you earned was revenues taxable, and you entered into an agreement, a contract that you would pay your “taxes”! When you stop filing, you have broken your agreement, your agreement to file tax returns, that invisible contract that you didn’t know you had with the government.

      So those who realize they do not owe taxes and stop filing and fight the IRS, most of the time, if they go to court will lose. The lawyers will not tell them why they lost, most don’t know, the judges will not tell them, most probably do know why they lost, the reason is, those non-filers broke their agreement, broke their contract to file tax returns.

      So this issue is not any different then the issue dealing with the churches and the First Amendment. It all deals with license/contract and permission from the government. I hope you understand this.

      God bless you

    • Michael Earl Riemer says:

      OregonGreg, I need to make one more comment,

      You state:

      “…Churches must be allowed to organize themselves into legal corporations for practical administrative reasons. i.e. so that they can open bank accounts, take title to land, vehicles, get utilities and insurance in the church name. That is how real life works. There is nothing evil about incorporating a congregation into one legal “body”. I do agree with you that Churches should not have to go begging the IRS for the waiver on taxes. But if we are going to take so bold a stand, it is worth our time to codify and affirm the obvious original intent of the Constitution into law…”

      That is not true. A church not only should not incorporate for practical administrative reasons, there is no reason for it to do so. No, real life does not work that way. You do not need, nor does a church, to get permission from the government to do what needs to be done. For example, you do not need a Social Security number to open a bank account or get a drivers license or to work for an employer. If you know the law, it can be done.

      My wife was able to open a bank account at a nation-wide bank without a Social Security number. The bank manager said that you can not open an account without one. Well, with the right forms and a little knowledge of the law, yes you can. You do not need a SS number to obtain a drivers license (if you really need one in the first place that is another story). The manager of the Motor Vehicle office said you need a SS number to get a license. He was very adamant about it. Boy, the look’s he gave me when I said, “NO” you do not need a SS number.” If looks could kill, I would have been a goner. My wife said; “No, no, don’t get him angry Michael!” Well, my wife got one without a SS number. As I related in another post, you do not need a state marriage license to be lawfully married. Immigration thought we did. But they were wrong.

      One more. There is a lot more to this. You had better know the law and what a dollar is before you try this. Hint, a federal reserve note is not a dollar. If you owe money to the IRS, tender full unconditional payment in U.S. issue gold or silver coin. When they refuse payment, the debt is discharged. I did just that with the $37,000 the state said I owed them. Debt discharged, but not without a few problems. It can be done. I could go on.

      Yes, if you try to do those few things I mentioned above you may run into problems. A Church will also run into problems trying to keep out of Caesar’s grip. But it can be done!!! Don’t you see, that if a church incorporates, now its master is no longer the Lord Jesus Christ, but the State; for the state is the creator of all corporations and has complete control over that which it creates. When churches incorporate they also remove themselves out from under the Constitution and places itself under the body of corporate law, where the First Amendment does not come into play.

      Following the Lord at times is not the easy path, but it is the right path, doing the right thing is not always easy, it may cost you a little, a lot, or your life, but it is the only way.

    • Sonny Hall says:

      Most church leaders and laypeople have been deceived about our “system” and how it works…money, taxes, contracts, etc… Most people believe what they hear without validating or consulting the law – the “rules of the game”. SEDM.org explains how you can open a bank account w/o a SSN. It is one of the most liberating websites for Christians I have found. Much study is required if you wish to be a free man because we have been deceived and enslaved for a long time. Thank You Michael for your comments. I’ve been skimming. I’ll come back to read more. What I’ve read, you’re on point about the church and incorporation. Incorporation for churches is a form of idolatry, obligating itself to the regulation and jurisdiction of the corporate state for what it believes is some benefit God can’t give them. Corporations give up their rights of 1st ammendment protection (among others) and corporations cannot hold complete title to the land. It’s time for the church to repent and sever ties with the state.

    • ARC36 says:

      I’d Love someone to tell me that, that would make my day, they’d Crap lookind down that Big Shinny Barrel, and say OR WHAT!

  13. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    Brother DeMar, the church is not a corporation or non-profit organization. Why waste time fighting the state dealing with the rules and regulations it has set up for its created entities; corporations, non-profit organizations and charities. Why should the church of Christ try to get the state to change its rules? When that is an issue that does not concern the church of Christ? Corporate rules and regulations the state employs to govern the working of non-profit organizations or charities is not a concern of the Church of God. When one enters into a contract they should be aware of the requirements and limitations that that agreement enjoins on the one entering into it.

    God’s Church is non taxable. The First Amendment makes that clear. So why do churches go to the government to get a tax-exempt status, for something they already have? When they get that tax-exempt status 501(c)3 they now have voluntarily placed themselves under the thumb of the IRS with all of its rules and regulations. Now they have taken a license from the government to do business, and if they do not follow all its requirements, the IRS will come a calling. Now, the First Amendment does not come into play at all. Any issue that they now have with the government is an issue of license/contract, not the Constitution.

    When a church incorporates or takes a 501(c)3 status it is no longer under the protections of the First Amendment. For now it has agreed to abide by all the rules and regulations that its corporate charter has laid out. For a church to agree to the rules and regulations, then break its agreement, its word, to adhere to them, because they don’t like some rule the IRS is now attempting to enforce, which they agreed to abide by (what is the word I am looking for), is just plain EVIL.

    The First Amendment does not allow someone (a church) to break a contract or agreement it has voluntarily made with the IRS or some other government agency.

    Now, the issue of asking for permission or getting a license from the government to do something.

    As I think about it, what a Christian does, anything and everything is a Christian ministry. Can the government license what the Church of God does? Does God’s Church need permission from the government to carry out its mission of mercy? Does God’s Church need permission to spread the gospel of Christ far and near, to feed the poor? Does God’s Church need to join itself in any way, shape or form by license, contract or agreement with the State, the IRS, the federal government or the FCC?

    Is American Vision a Christian ministry founded by Christians for a Christian reason or purpose? Is American Vision spreading the message of Christ’s power and dominion to all it can? Is the vision that American Vision has for this world, is it a Christian vision? I would hope you answer yes.

    Has American Vision asked Caesar’s permission to accomplish its mission? Has American Vision gone to Caesar, the FCC, this independent agency of the United Stated government to ask permission to use the airways to spread its message via the TV or radio? Has American Vision, in any way, shape or form, submitted to any government regulations, to any government agencies to the mission of spreading the gospel of Christ? I would pray that the answer to these questions is no.
    But I am reasonably sure that you would have to answer yes.

    Would not the First Amendment apply to all the above questions? The government can not hinder or restrain the preaching of the gospel by passing any laws against “the free exercise thereof.” Wouldn’t needing permission of the FCC to use the airways to preach Christ’s message be in violation of that Amendment? Wouldn’t needing permission, license to operate a Christian radio station be in violation of that First Amendment? Is American Vision a Christian ministry or is it a corporation? Does it have 501(c)3 status which places it under the control of one or more governmental agencies?

    For a Christian there are no secular issues in life, everything a Christian does, revolves around, the Lord Jesus Christ, whether he is talking about the weather, or the death of Christ on the cross, or mathematics as someone has pointed out. So anything that would go out over the airways by a Christian radio ministry such as American Vision’s, would be covered by the First Amendment, would it not?
    The reason I have sent five posts in response to your article, is, this has hit a very “hot button” in my life. This issue has totally changed my life, it really matters, in my case it is a matter of life and death, literally. And not my life only, for many many others this issue touches. In fact, if you “boil” it down, I don’t think there is anyone in the U.S., or probably the world, that the issue of license from the government does not come knocking on their door sooner or later.

    Brother DeMar, please respond to this post. You may send your response to my email: riemerm@att.net

  14. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    Brother DeMar, the church is not a corporation or non-profit organization. Why waste time fighting the state dealing with the rules and regulations it has set up for its created entities; corporations, non-profit organizations and charities. Why should the church of Christ try to get the state to change its rules? When that is an issue that does not concern the church of Christ? Corporate rules and regulations the state employs to govern the working of non-profit organizations or charities is not a concern of the Church of God. When one enters into a contract they should be aware of the requirements and limitations that that agreement enjoins on the one entering into it.

    God’s Church is non taxable. The First Amendment makes that clear. So why do churches go to the government to get a tax-exempt status, for something they already have? When they get that tax-exempt status 501(c)3 they now have voluntarily placed themselves under the thumb of the IRS with all of its rules and regulations. Now they have taken a license from the government to do business, and if they do not follow all its requirements, the IRS will come a calling. Now, the First Amendment does not come into play at all. Any issue that they now have with the government is an issue of license/contract, not the Constitution.

    When a church incorporates or takes a 501(c)3 status it is no longer under the protections of the First Amendment. For now it has agreed to abide by all the rules and regulations that its corporate charter has laid out. For a church to agree to the rules and regulations, then break its agreement, its word, to adhere to them, because they don’t like some rule the IRS is now attempting to enforce, which they agreed to abide by (what is the word I am looking for), is just plain EVIL.

    The First Amendment does not allow someone (a church) to break a contract or agreement it has voluntarily made with the IRS or some other government agency.

    Now, the issue of asking for permission or getting a license from the government to do something.

    As I think about it, what a Christian does, anything and everything is a Christian ministry. Can the government license what the Church of God does? Does God’s Church need permission from the government to carry out its mission of mercy? Does God’s Church need permission to spread the gospel of Christ far and near, to feed the poor? Does God’s Church need to join itself in any way, shape or form by license, contract or agreement with the State, the IRS, the federal government or the FCC?

    Is American Vision a Christian ministry founded by Christians for a Christian reason or purpose? Is American Vision spreading the message of Christ’s power and dominion to all it can? Is the vision that American Vision has for this world, is it a Christian vision? I would hope you answer yes.

    Has American Vision asked Caesar’s permission to accomplish its mission? Has American Vision gone to Caesar, the FCC, this independent agency of the United Stated government to ask permission to use the airways to spread its message via the TV or radio? Has American Vision, in any way, shape or form, submitted to any government regulations, to any government agencies to the mission of spreading the gospel of Christ? I would pray that the answer to these questions is no.
    But I am reasonably sure that you would have to answer yes.

    Would not the First Amendment apply to all the above questions? The government can not hinder or restrain the preaching of the gospel by passing any laws against “the free exercise thereof.” Wouldn’t needing permission of the FCC to use the airways to preach Christ’s message be in violation of that Amendment? Wouldn’t needing permission, license to operate a Christian radio station be in violation of that First Amendment? Is American Vision a Christian ministry or is it a corporation? Does it have 501(c)3 status which places it under the control of one or more governmental agencies?

    For a Christian there are no secular issues in life, everything a Christian does, revolves around, the Lord Jesus Christ, whether he is talking about the weather, or the death of Christ on the cross, or mathematics as someone has pointed out. So anything that would go out over the airways by a Christian radio ministry such as American Vision’s, would be covered by the First Amendment, would it not?
    The reason I have sent five posts in response to your article, is, this has hit a very “hot button” in my life. This issue has totally changed my life, it really matters, in my case it is a matter of life and death, literally. And not my life only, many many others this issue touches. In fact, if you “boil” it down, I don’t think there is anyone in the U.S., or probably the world, that the issue of license from the government does not come knocking on their door sooner or later.

    Brother DeMar, please respond to this post. You may send your response to my email: riemerm@att.net

  15. Blockade Runner says:

    Maybe we should rethink what Paul was discussing in 2 Cor. 6. What fellowship does Christ have with Beliel? The American church has indeed attempted to bargain with the devil. In this vein, I refuse to make my giving in the form of checks that must be reported as income by the faithful servants of Christ I support. Caesar is not entitled to a dime of what they receive from God supplying their needs via His people. If you think accomodation is justifiable, you would never have made it as a 1st century Christian, even if you do have M. Div. behind your name.

  16. Jaime says:

    ur assesment of the issues involved cannot be any more wrong.. Please check ur facts before pretending to speak for christians especially against the u.s govt. and its IRS in such a slandering, maligning manner…
    thank you
    Rev Jaime..

    • Blockade Runner says:

      Well, he speaks for this Christian….so keep talking. UNITED STATES INC. is a NATIONAL corporate entity that hi-jacked your federal govt. in 1871. Your government is not your country….in fact, this government (so-called) is killing your country. The IRS you fear is not an agency of the United States government, and is unconstitutional. Congress shall tax….no where is a collection agency, sub-contracter for the Dept of Treasury, exacting a feudalistic tribute on man’s labor, which is surrendered to the IMF to pay interest on the hot checks written by YOUR government. Usury, greed, theft, covetousness, idolatry…. Did you say you’re a Rev? Rev of what??? You’re a sinner saved by grace, and nobody’s boss here Jaime.

  17. Jaime says:

    it seems that ur assesment of the root of the problem cannot be any more wrong.. Please check ur facts before reporting this slanderous story on the govt irs..u cannot in

    • Blockade Runner says:

      While I’m on a roll….I hold the United States Govt, the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, and Un-Judicial Branch…along with all of the unconstitutional and godless agencies, offices, departments in bureaus that would usurp the Sovereign Rights of King Jesus in total and utter contempt. I will not worship the Beast. But evidently some of our ‘clergy’ will doubtless do what it takes to insure that ‘their kingdom’ is secure. Newsflash. No government of man, and especially one that willfully mocks God with every action, is your friend, OR a friend of God.

    • Michael Earl Riemer says:

      Jaime, you state:

      “it seems that ur assesment of the root of the problem cannot be any more wrong.. Please check ur facts before reporting this slanderous story on the govt irs..u cannot in”

      Well, Jaime, I am willing to be corrected. Please tell me where my “ur assessment” is in error. Please tell me in what way I slandered the government or the IRS. I will need the specific facts and errors I have made pertaining to your charge of slander. As far as I know, any facts I have related are correct. Yes, please enlighten me.

  18. Acushla says:

    It boils down to the understanding of the Text. “Be ye in the world but not of the world”!!

  19. John says:

    Lindon B. Johnson acted out of malice towards a preacher who was openly criticizing him when he inserted the stipulation that churches could not support political candidates back in 1964. Of course there are no such limitation place on Labor Unions who pour millions of dollars into the coffers of their fellow Marxists in Washington and elsewhere. The left fears religion because it is the one moral authority against which its ideology can not stand. It is time once again to give ethics and morals a place in the public square just as the founding fathers saw fit to do.

    • OregonGreg says:

      Well done John! The U.S. Constitution really isn’t that complicated after all is it? The The Feds can’t establish a religion and it can’t prohibit the free exercise of religion. The restraint is placed on the Federal government,

  20. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    I just have to make another comment. There are so many things in that article that drew my ire.

    Gary DeMar, I love you brother, please do not be offended, I say these things in love. You state:

    “Don’t be bullied. It’s time to take a stand for Jesus Christ. Your future and the future of your children are at stake. If you want more information, go to the Alliance Defense Fund…..”

    Yes it’s time to take a stand for Jesus Christ. But don’t waste your time going to the Alliance Defense Fund for this issue, for it will not help, they are not touching upon the problem. The First Amendment is not the issue in this case. Nor is it the issue dealing with child support and the demonic court system in the U.S. The issue is contract/agreement. There, Brother DeMar, is the root of the problem, the heart of the matter. Contract/license.

    Another related issue is the marriage license. Actually it’s the same issue as your article deals with. License, people and churches entering into agreements, contracts with the government and then complaining when the heavy hand of Uncle Sam reaches out and touches them. Then they do not like what they, in most cases agreed to unknowingly. They then complain that their rights are being violated. But they, the Churches, gave up there Constitutional rights when they incorporated, and when they took a 501(c)3 status with the IRS.

    A marriage license is a big big problem for many Christian men and women in this nation. Although, more so for men, it seems to me, then for woman. I am sure you know a few, maybe many Christian men for whom the hand of government via the Child Support system has pounded them into the dirt. For many Christian men that system has been very costly.

    That system has been very costly for me. It cost me well over $100,000 dollars, lots of time, free room and board as a guest of the county jail. A judge ordering me to pay more in child support then I made. Making $5,000 a month, and having the government take all of my paycheck except for $289 dollars. My children, my house, my car, and a host of other things, like the time I could have spent with my children, being there for them….. All because I gave the government permission to do those things to me!!! I took a marriage license. I entered into a voluntary contract with the state by getting a marriage license. I didn’t know at the time how very very costly it would be.

    A church getting a 501(c)3 status from the IRS or incorporating is no different then a couple getting a marriage license/contract from the State. In the marriage contract (license) there are three parties to this agreement, you, your spouse and the state, God is not a party to this agreement. With this contract you agree to be subject to the demonic family court with its child support system. This system can order you to pay a little, a lot, or more then you make, as it did with me. When you go into its court room there is no jury, there needs to be no cause for a divorce. The judge/s in most cases, as I found out are totally biased against most Christians. I could go on but you get the picture. A Christian man does not have a good chance in that court system.

    Here is the “kicker” you do not need a marriage license from the state to be lawfully married! When you get that license from the state, you voluntarily subject yourself to its court system, its orders and all those blessing I just mentioned and more. The Churches do not need to become a corporation or get a 501(c)3 status from the IRS. When they do those things all the “blessing” from the government come with it.

    My wife is from the Philippines. She came to the U.S. on a fiancée visa. We had 90 days to get married or she would be deported. We got lawfully married by a non licensed minister. We drew up our own marriage contract and presented that to immigration. Well immigration was not too happy with our marriage contact. To make a long story short. After I explained the law to them, after five years she was still in the U.S., she did not get deported. Immigration accepted our marriage contract as being lawfully married.

    Christians, Christian Churches, please do not give the government permission to do those things to you by granting them permission by contact or license. Doing just those things, Brother DeMar, will help a whole lot to take back our country from the forces of darkness.

  21. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    I am sorry brother DeMar, I need to make one more comment.

    You state:

    “The Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group, will defend you.”
    “In response to more than 50 years of threats and intimidation by activist groups wielding the Johnson Amendment as a sword against the Church, ADF began the Pulpit Initiative in 2008. The goal of the Pulpit Initiative is simple: have the Johnson Amendment declared unconstitutional — and once and for all remove the ability of the IRS to censor what a pastor says from the pulpit.”

    The church does not need the Alliance Defense Fund for this issue. The church does not need the Pulpit Initiative. The church does not need to have the Johnson Amendment declared unconstitutional. For a Church the Johnson Amendment does apply. It makes no difference for a church. It can not be used as you state as a “sword against the Church.” For a church the pastor can teach whatever he wants even if there are a 1,000 agents from the IRS taking notes. The IRS does not have the ability to censor what a pastor says from the pulpit IF the Church is not incorporated or IF it does not have the 501(c)3 It is a waste of time, money and resources to try and do so, for something the IRS can not do. Why waste the time in trying to change something that does not effect the church? A corporation yes, a church no.

    AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE:
    The solution to what you call government harassment is so very simple, every church must un-incorporate and drop its 501(c)3. Then this problem would be gone in short order!!!!!!

    • A. Sharpe says:

      MER – I don’t think you’ll get far attempting to wean the AV folk from that government teat. Someone who claims the title “Reformed” and then makes a buck on the high seas utilizing the services a Roman Catholic, a perpetual “designated” loser political candidate, one of Il Papa’s faithful, is not likely to submit also to weaning.

      “The logic is simple.” GD

      Strongholds are not cast down with logic, which is but Man’s pitifully feeble ratiocination.

      If a case were pressed, there is nothing to prevent SCOTUS (who found a “right to privacy” somewhere over the rainbow) from deciding that the 501(c)(3) law is fine, but that it has been misapplied to allow Churches its benefits, given the “No Law…” proviso of the First Amendment. After all, SCOTUS is now comprised of Jews and Roman Catholics entirely.

      The Demar “logic” also fails to take into account that SCOTUS, above all, are all appointees who have proved previously that they are trust-worthily able to be “compromised”. They are political appointees, actually. After all, judges typically are lawyers who couldn’t make a living as lawyers.

      If the bent knee to Caesar entailed in the 501(c)(3) were foregone, then inevitably persecution would ensue, as that is the norm. And then, horror of horrors, the Church would be the Church, having joined Messiah Yeshua outside the camp. 115 million Chinese believers in the PRC have found that an acceptable path. God help them if American missionaries get to them.

      Wouldn’t it be best to seize control of government, and kill all those who oppose the Church, thus avoiding all that nasty suffering? I mean, couldn’t we all just arrange our own horizons, foregoing all that pro-horidzo stuff like a good Roman Catholic semi-Pelagian? Take a cruise or something?

      Is that what AV is all about – Rebellion and witchcraft (rearranging the deck chairs by unlawful means as in order your own horizon)? They are littermates, according to God. They always claim they are just good folk, and yet – “effective ghettos” where “blasphemers” are “penned” until “execution” doesn’t sound all that harmless. Course, “pernicious Purists” would be exempt.

      Just askin…

      • Carol says:

        Do any of you guys who have commented work? Or do you just sit around in your underwear on the computer and do nothing but read and memorize. As to the guy complaining of Contracts, his statement of the marriage contract and his troubles from it explain everything about him. And then going to an out of the states bride, who knows nothing of the laws and a binding contract, for his next lifetime caregiver explains a lot as well. The problem is, exactly the 501(c)3, yet Media Matters is a 501(c)3 and they couldn’t be more biased politically. No one at the IRS is doing a thing to them even after thousands of complaints by American Citizens. I think a couple of you read these articles just to argue with someone that you think is as intelligent as you believe you are. Or you just want to prove your superiority. Write a book, just keep you comments here to a non snooring length. FREE SPEECH MEANS ANYWHERE. ARGUMENT OVER. By the way the only informative piece on this blog was the guy talking about WHY Johnson passed this bill, and it sounds just like the power hungry narcissist that he was. Every bit believable. Now that is what we wish to learn from these blogs, not the other disjointed tripe. My FIRST AND LAST COMMENT ON THIS BLOG.

  22. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    I need to make another comment:

    Brother DeMar you state:

    “There are no constitutional prohibitions against churches speaking out on political issues or endorsing candidates. We got into this mess when in 1954 a law was rammed through Congress by then-Senator Lyndon Johnson to restrict churches from speaking freely on topics they have addressed for nearly two millennia.”

    The Churches did not get into this mess in 1954, for that rule or law does not effect a Church. It effects all 501 (c)3 organizations. All government laws or rules only effect those who have placed themselves under them. It does not matter what rules or laws the congress or senators may try to pass or get passed. If a Church does not have that status, 501(c)3 it does not apply, case closed!!!!!

    The IRS is not intimidating churches nor is what they are doing a direct violation of the First Amendment. As I stated before it is not a First Amendment issue. It is an issue of Contract. Those churches gave away their First Amendment rights when they contracted with the state by becoming a corporation or with the IRS by taking a 501(c)3.

    If I am not in the military, its rules or laws do not apply to me. If I am an enlisted man in the military and a Sargent comes by and says drop and give me ten, I better drop and give him ten or something bad will happen. If I am not in the military and a Sargent comes by and says drop and give me ten, I can tell him to drop dead, and nothing bad will happen to me. Military law does not apply to me if I am not in the military!

    IRS laws, rules, or regulations do not apply to Churches, IF they do not have 501(c)3 status. Or, IF they are not corporations.

    The solution to what you call government harassment is so very very very simple, every church must un-incorporate and drop its 501(c)3. Then this problem would be gone overnight, in short order!!!!!!

    You need to look into this Brother!!!

    Yours in Christ

  23. Michael Earl Riemer says:

    Brother DeMar you just may be on the wrong side of this case. If you are talking about a church, you are totally correct, the First Amendment allows churches to speak freely on any subject without government or IRS interference. The government and the IRS has no jurisdiction or any control over a church. A church can not be taken to court, for as the First Amendment clearly states, there is no law that can be made dealing with a church! So how can a church be taken to court? For there is no law that applies to it.

    A church does not have a “tax status,” a church is not a nonprofit organization. The IRS can not take away a “tax-exempt status” from a church, for a church does not have a tax-exempt status to take away.

    You are correct Brother DeMar when you state: “No church has ever lost its tax-exempt status for speaking out on issues or endorsing candidates…” No church has a tax-exempt status to lose. Therefore no church comes under the jurisdiction of the IRS or any agency of any branch of the government.

    Now, on the other side, a nonprofit organization or a corporation does fall under the control, under the jurisdiction of the IRS and the government. Those organizations and corporations must adhere too, must follow all the rules and regulations that were granted to it by the State-license, contract that they entered into when they became a corporation.

    When some church applies for and receives a IRC 501(c)3 recognition, that “church” has now converted what was a God-given right, into a government-granted benefit. Churches only become tax exempt when they apply to the government for the privilege of a tax exempt license.

    The government has no jurisdiction over a church, it most certainly has jurisdiction over that which it creates!!!

    When a church incorporates, or becomes a nonprofit organization, it now has placed itself under the control and jurisdiction of the State! Who creates the corporation? The State. What the state creates, it controls, it sets the rules, and the regulations that govern its creation.

    Now brother DeMar, is your article dealing with a church or a corporation? You didn’t say. Is the Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova Tenn. a church or is it a corporation? If that “church,” the Bellevue Baptist Church has a 501(c)3 status or has incorporated, it is now no longer a First Amendment issue. It is now an issue of contract and license.

    As you know, the government does not grant anyone rights. They are God given to all. The government does issue license to those who it rules over and has control of. Our constitution lists some of the God given rights we all have. Freedom of speech is one of the numerated rights.

    If I work for a corporation and sign a non-discloser agreement before I start to work there, if I leave, I have no right to disclose the priority information I had gotten during my time of employment. I have a right of free speech, but I can contract away that right for a time.

    A church has God given rights that no government has legitimate authority over. But a church can contract away those rights by becoming a 501(c))3 organization or by becoming a corporation, thereby entering into a binding agreement with the IRS or the government, and by doing so are no longer under God’s control or under the First Amendment, but now are in Caesar’s Grip.

    If Bellevue Baptist Church is a corporation, and has a 501(c )3, I just might have to side with the IRS, for it just may be that the Bellevue Baptist Church broke their contract, one of the ever changing rules and guide lines that those who are under the thumb of the IRS have placed themselves. If they broke their contract or lawful agreement that they made, (which they didn’t have to make) they should be hounded by the IRS and punished to the full extent of the law they committed themselves too.

    We are to keep our word as the Scripture teaches. You might want to read about the Gibeonites and the contract that Joshua kept with them, in the Book of Joshua Chapter 9.

    The solution is simple, a church must un-incorporate and drop its 501(c)3 status. If they do that, then and only then will the First Amendment apply. For then they will once again become a Church under God, not a corporation under its creator the State.

    Your in Christ Jesus our Lord

  24. Cromwell says:

    Soft Tyranny, meanwhile in Iran Hard Tyranny is about to kill a Christian convert.

    • Blockade Runner says:

      While in the United States we watched FBI and ATF incinerate a compound full of Adventists in Waco (including 80+ women and children) on the 6pm news while we ate dinner. I call THAT hard tyranny.

  25. R Jaynes says:

    Gary,

    You said, “The purpose of Christian involvement in civil government is to decrease the power of the State at every level.” (By the way, this is another of your quotes that goes on my list of wise sayings by great minds. Yes, you have a great mind because you have struggled with truth to arrive at the truth.)

    You are RIGHT ON about that but…we have a lot of work to do to prepare people for the day when we can roll back government tyranny, oppression, size, influence, corruption, etc. etc. We must first be a virtuous, pious, righteous, God-fearing, Bible reading people before we can truly handle the kind of government you and I want. We must learn to first govern ourselves in such a way as to show beyond all doubt a better way than overbearing government.

    I think it was Horace Greeley who said, “It is impossible to enslave mentally or socially a Bible people. The principles of the Bible are the groundwork of human freedom.”

    And Andrew J. Young said, “Unless we first think rightly about God we shall be in basic error about everything else.”

  26. aCultureWarrior says:

    Anyone that has done their research would know that AU is just a front for the communist founded ACLU.

    Mr. DeMar writes:

    “The purpose of Christian involvement in civil government is to decrease the power of the State at every level.”

    Yet we’re called “statists” if we acknowledge that God ordained the civil magistrate as one of 3 institutions for the governance of man (the family and Church being the other two).

    Of course those that call us “statists” support a Libertarian who has spent most of his adult life on the government dole as a Congressman from Texas.

    • Tired Old Man says:

      CultWar,

      Since you are opposed to anything that might be considered libertarian, I assume that you would call yourself a conservative. Is that a correct assumption?

      • aCultureWarrior says:

        TOM: I’m opposed to anything that is connected with the godless modern day Libertarian Party. They’ve defined the movement, not I.

      • Tom Wiegand says:

        Just to say you are of the libertarian philosophy does not automatically make you a member of any party. My more then saying you have ch
        ristian beliefs make you a member of Christ’s Party.

    • Robert Davidson says:

      “…a Libertarian who has spent most of his adult life on the government dole as a Congressman from Texas.”

      A bit math-challenged? Dr. Paul is 76 years old. He has served a total of 12 two-year terms in Congress. 76 – 24 = 52. He was born in 1935 and earned his medical degree in 1961. So, most of his adult life has been spent as an obstetrician – not as a Congressman.

      As for your characterization that Dr. Paul is simply another bureaucrat “on the dole”, I offer a few facts related to his salary and benefits:

      He has never taken a government junket
      He does not participate in the lucrative Congressional Pension Program
      He returns a portion of his annual Congressional Office Budget every year
      He has never voted to raise taxes
      He has never voted for an unbalanced budget
      He has never voted to raise Congressional Pay

      How about next time you do a little research before attacking a brother in Christ?

      • aCultureWarrior says:

        Believe me Robert Davidson, when I deal with people who want to legalize sin, and then have the audacity to call themselves Christians, I do my homework first.

        “Paul became a delegate to the Texas Republican convention and a Republican candidate for the United States Congress. During 1974, incumbent Robert R. Casey defeated him for the 22nd district.”

        Now, let’s do that math again: 76-18 ( at 18 you’re technically a minor without full adult rights, but I’ll go with 18)=58 years that he’s been an adult. Add the 2 years he attempted to become a US Congressman + the 24 years he’s been enjoying all the benefits of a US Congressman (do you REALLY want me to go into those benefits Robert?) =26 years that he’s wanted to be on the government dole.

        I stand corrected: Ron Paul has not been on the government dole the 58 years that he’s been a (wannabe) adult, only 26 years of it.

        Let’s talk more about your savior.

        He doesn’t think homosexuality is a sin (I wonder how God feels about that?) and even used the power of his office to vote FOR allowing homosexuals into the US military (someone tell Ron Paul to read Romans 13, where it says that government is to “do good” in the eyes of God).

        He thinks abortion is a “States Rights matter”, thus life being sacred in one State, but not obviously not when you cross State Lines. I wonder how God feels about murdering the unborn out of convenience Mr. Davidson?

        He’s a “lifetime member” of a political party that wants all sin legalized, including prostitution and hard recreational drugs. Do I need to site Scripture on these issues Robert?

        As far as government handouts: Ron Paul accepted earmarked federal tax dollars for his district’s own pet pork projects – to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.
        http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59380

        Oh, and “Mr. strict constitutionalist” obviously doesn’t understand the Federal Election Campain Act either:

        WHY IS MOSCOW-FUNDED RUSSIAN TELEVISION SUPPORTING RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT? AND IS RUSSIA TODAY TELEVISION VIOLATING U.S. LAW IN DOING SO?
        http://www.usasurvival.org/ck06.09.2011.html

        I’ve only started Robert, do you REALLY want to hear more about Ron Paul?

      • aCultureWarrior says:

        While the staff of AV decide if they’re going to publish my response to Robert Davidson’s comment, take note that in order to become a US Congressman, you must be 25 years of age. Do the math Robert.

      • Robert Davidson says:

        I did – Dr. Paul first entered Congress in 1976 when he was 41. He had already been an MD for 15 years.

      • aCultureWarrior says:

        Robert: At age 41, 16 years after he became eligible to be elected as a US Congressman, he took his oath of office. From 41 to 76 he has been on the government dole. Do your math again. He’s been on the government dole for 35 years.

        Statist!

      • Robert Davidson says:

        You count the years he “wanted” to be in government? Really? I can’t fix your issues with math, but here is the solution again: 76 – 18 = 58 adult years, as you indicated. He has been in Congress 24 years. So, 24/58 (41%) of his adult years have been in Congress. What you are overlooking is that he is a 12-term Congressman. He has not been in government consistently since he was 41.

        I have one Savior – Jesus Christ – so don’t mock me by referring to Dr. Paul as my “savior”.

        Your characterization of his position on homosexuality is simply false and I have answered you on this previously in detail.

        The FedGov has made abortion legal. Dr. Paul knows that many states will outlaw it and so he is using the lever of “States Rights” to try to move the issue from the federal to the state level in order to prevent as many abortions as possible as quickly as possible. There is no instant political fix to outlaw abortion everywhere in the U.S. at once. He works to eliminate it the fastest way that he sees has a reasonable chance of success. He has introduced legislation on numerous occasions to make abortion illegal. Stop misrepresenting his position and his efforts to save the unborn. Stop bearing false witness against him.

        Ron Paul votes against earmarks in Congress on principle and then accepts them for his district to get back as much of the money confiscated from his constituents as possible. He’s right on both counts.

        I have already answered you on his membership in the Libertarian and Republican Parties.

        You will have to ask RT why they give favorable coverage to Dr. Paul but there is no law prohibiting them or any other foreign news outlet from doing so. I can see where it might be a bit surprising, though, given his staunch anti-communist stance during the Cold War and his obvious disdain for all things “statist”. Maybe they, like most people, appreciate fiscal responsibility and individual liberty. Considering how much the MSM has tried to marginalize Dr. Paul, I have no doubt that any breach of law by his campaign would be front page news in a heartbeat.

        I don’t need you to tell me more about Dr. Paul because, apparently, I already know far more about him than you do.

      • aCultureWarrior says:

        Ron Paul on homosexuality: listen for yourself Robert.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIeW0DY64bE

        (Boy, does he ever go all out to defend the sodomites, but then, that’s what Libertarians do).

        Regarding abortion: David Barton defeats your argument.
        http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=7128

        Even if ONE city in ONE state allowed the murder of the innocent unborn, do they have some kind of “right” to do so?

      • Robert Davidson says:

        I listened to the interview and agree with Dr. Paul – all are sinners, both homosexual and heterosexual sinners are present in the military, and there is no practical way to screen them out without decimating the military. Contrary to your assertion, he makes no defense of sodomites but points to the much larger problem that Mr. Lofton appears to sidestep repeatedly because Dr. Paul isn’t as narrowly focused on a relatively tiny problem as he would prefer.

        Being a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy, and having spent 25 years in the U.S. Army, I can attest to the fact that heterosexual sin in the military is rampant and pervasive. Problems caused by homosexual sin are insignificant in comparison. Your argument reminds me of Matthew 23:23,24 – by pointing out homosexual sin in the military while ignoring the far greater evil caused by heterosexual sin, you strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

        Mr. Barton is correct – if you want to outlaw abortion in the U.S., amend the Constitution to prohibit it. Until then, Dr. Paul continues doing everything he can in his position to reduce the number of abortions to the greatest extent possible as quickly as possible. Since half the States would immediately outlaw abortion, his strategy is sound and every Christian should be supporting him in his effort to remove federal jurisdiction from this matter.

        One for you – a recent ad showing Dr. Paul on abortion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAsLPrnJGc&feature=youtu.be

  27. MMMMMMANNNNNNN LEGGO!!!! Amen. Forwarding this to every sound Pastor I know!!!!

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