We get a mixed message from many pastors, John MacArthur is a prominent example, in the area of politics. In his book Why Government Can’t Save You, MacArthur seems to say on one page that it’s okay to get involved politically but then on other pages he seems to say we shouldn’t waste our time. Should Christians be politically active? Find out right now, on this edition of Vantage Point.
Because Christians of all churches and denominations dont see politics as a legit avenue for them to pursue NY just approved gay marriage. Congrats NY you are now as corrupt as we are up here in Ontario. Soon churches and christians and religious jews will have church and temple licenses revoked for not allowing gay marriages IN their places of worship. Think it won't happen? Why not? They will brand you all as 'bigots' and then move into change your churches and temples to fit their worldview since you did not stand up and enforce yours. Neutrality is a lie and right now they say they wont bother you in your churches and temples. I say: just wait. All conservative christians, (protestants, catholics, orthodox) and conservative jewish groups need to get involved in politics in order to enforce common christian principles and morality otherwise the left wing wackos and the sodomites will call the shots. These are EVIL people folks believe me they have your places of worship marked down as next. Turn the tide on these scum leave your dispensationalist delusions and get back to your postmill puritan roots for crying out loud. God bless america.
I couldn't agree with you more, Gary! Christians MUST get involved in politics because government affects our lives everyday. The Christian founders of this country were ALSO the political leaders of their day. The pastors of the churches wrote up the petitions of grievance, and turned them into their government officials . Church wasn't just for learning about the Bible and how to conduct oneself in your their life, but it was about what was happening in the political world. That's how the people of those days got their news and information on what was happening in their world. The Christian people of that day were more informed than the Christians of this day are because of that, and therefore, our country was virtually free of all the curses that have come upon us now.
One thing for sure. God gave this nation and government to "WE THE PEOPLE". He expects that we tend it properly and in his name. Stop hidding behind the L.B.J.'S 1958 law putting the church monies in jepordy by losing the tax free status if the churches speakout against politicians. Attack on the First amendment free speech. churches did nothing. We entered Tribulation a few years ago 2007. The first redeemed are the 144,000 thousand. His church. These will be the healers, the seers, teachers, they will work hand in hand with Jesus Christ to heal the world. However how can this be when no one speaks out against the injustice, of the desecration of the word of God. When i hear that the USA is not in Prophecy my heart fails. Ephraim is Great Brittan. Manaesh is America. If you feel hiding and not doing what the lord expects. Remember the lord and master of the house gave 5 sheckles to and he buried it. What happened? It was taken from him and given to another. Another area you might want to discuss is the death of Islam in 1948 when the quran was revised. The Bible, Torah were no longer the book to be read by Muslims. Only the Quran. Read the Hidith learn about Mohommedist of today. This will make your hair curl. Learn about the current idea of slavery, who? and Where. Penalties of disobedience to the Quran. There are only two religions on the planet today. Christianity, Judaism. Judaism, Old Testement, Christianity New Tesment. They have to be read and used together for a proper fit. All the so called religions of today are Faiths not religions. The Mohommedists of today are absolute Evil. They are forming a new nation, a Caliphate. It is intended to be the new world governess, under the Anti Christ. Who by the way has reciently be possessed by the Dark Angel who's name has no sound, but is only a thought. The Angel Pisonus was give the key to Hell in 1998. He released the fallen Angeles that had been held in Hell waiting to be released, and go forth and posses the individules necessary to bring forth the kingdom of the Anti Christ. I have only touched on the many things that have transpired in the past few years. Now will you stand with God and his people or will you make excuses and cower.
It's important to remember that John MacArthur is a premillennial dispensationalist (yet a Calvinist at the same time!) The quotes that Gary mentioned from MacArthur's book confirming a pessimistic eschatology were no coincidence. Here is an excerpt of his doctrinal statement from the website of the school he is president of: The Rapture of the Church We teach the personal, bodily return of our Lord Jesus Christ before the seven-year tribulation (1 Thessalonians 4:16; Titus 2:13) to translate His church from this earth (John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:11) and, between this event and His glorious return with His saints, to reward believers according to their works (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10). The Tribulation Period We teach that immediately following the removal of the church from the earth (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) the righteous judgments of God will be poured out upon an unbelieving world (Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:27; 12:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12; Revelation 16), and that these judgments will be climaxed by the return of Christ in glory to the earth (Matthew 24:27-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12). At that time the Old Testament and tribulation saints will be raised and the living will be judged (Daniel 12:2-3; Revelation 20:4-6). This period includes the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24:15-31; 25:31-46). The Second Coming and the Millennial Reign We teach that after the tribulation period, Christ will come to earth to occupy the throne of David (Matthew 25:31; Luke 1:31-33; Acts 1:10-11; 2:29-30) and establish His Messianic kingdom for a thousand years on the earth (Revelation 20:1-7). During this time the resurrected saints will reign with Him over Israel and all the nations of the earth (Ezekiel 37:21-28; Daniel 7:17-22; Revelation 19:11-16). This reign will be preceded by the overthrow of the Antichrist and the False Prophet, and by the removal of Satan from the world (Daniel 7:17-27; Revelation 20:1-7). We teach that the kingdom itself will be the fulfillment of God's promise to Israel (Isaiah 65:17-25; Ezekiel 37:21-28; Zechariah 8:1-17) to restore them to the land which they forfeited through their disobedience (Deuteronomy 28:15-68). The result of their disobedience was that Israel was temporarily set aside (Matthew 21:43; Romans 11:1-26) but will again be awakened through repentance to enter into the land of blessing (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:22-32; Romans 11:25-29). We teach that this time of our Lord's reign will be characterized by harmony, justice, peace, righteousness, and long life (Isaiah 11; 65:17-25; Ezekiel 36:33-38), and will be brought to an end with the release of Satan (Revelation 20:7). The Judgment of the Lost We teach that following the release of Satan after the thousand year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:7), Satan will deceive the nations of the earth and gather them to battle against the saints and the beloved city, at which time Satan and his army will be devoured by fire from heaven (Revelation 20:9). Following this, Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10) whereupon Christ, who is the judge of all men (John 5:22), will resurrect and judge the great and small at the Great White Throne judgment. If these doctrines are true, the world is inevitably headed for apocalyptic disaster, and God's kingdom will only operate after Christ personally returns, then Christians shouldn't be involved in anything beyond personal evangelism and church building, right? And politics and other endeavors are useless. Let's just "save souls" and get out of here. But then why does MacArthur even believe in higher education? He is the president of The Master's College, but what is the purpose of this school? Is it just to prepare all students to become "full-time ministers" or be good evangelists at work after they graduate, or are they supposed to go out into society and actually make a difference in the world by applying Christianity to their vocations and careers? Hopefully, Mr. MacArthur is just inconsistent on this point in view of his eschatology.
2 points: I'd guess MacArthur's book makes points similar to Cal Thomas's book from ~15 years ago, that govt does not substitute for God's purposes and is not the way to advance His kingdom, thus we don't put our spiritual hopes in govt. True, but govt can go astray and do bad, and my position is THAT is what we must get involved for, to stop bad agendas (prominent among which is an eagerness to restrict you from following Christ in not just civic affairs but also in evangelism, hiring of church staff, and many nonpolitical areas). You might not believe in the "dirty arena of politics"; you probably similarly don't believe in crime either but I bet you still lock your doors. Similarly in order to just be a mind-your-own-business Christian, you still have to be vigilant and diligent and act, because the state by nature does not mind its own business. I believe this Christ-informed involvement is consistent with the general purpose of the Old Testament prophets. Before we get too far into questioning what type of govt we can be yoked with, let's not forget that many valiant and heroic Christians were and are living (and dying) faithfully and to God's-glory under myriad evil totalitarian regimes, from Herod and Nero to Stalin, Castro, Mao, and today's Islamists. In comparison, the range of debate re what the US system is or ought to be, they're all pretty cushy. THe debate is worthwhile but let's not forget to just make the best of whatever we have.
Mr. DeMar (or anyone else inclined to answer): How was it that so many Deists and Unitarians got elected in this country around the time of its founding? The history of this country is a mixed bag in my opinion. I'm a Covenanter; we have tried very hard to get the Lordship of Christ put in the US Constitution over the past two hundred or so years. If the country was so overwhelmingly Christian at its founding, why couldn't that find its way into the Constitution? Why did we elect deists and unitarians so early in our history? Why didn't Reformed believers make up a supermajority of the Founding Fathers of this nation? Thanks, Matthew
I agree, we should be involved. Involved in absolving ourselves of non biblical forms of government and forming a Christian one. And don't tell me we can't do it, i'm an optimist with a really big God! To think that Christians can be yoked with unregenerate non-believers co-equally in civil governance is absurd. We have lost our way. The first century church understood this because they were foundationally converted Jews that understood God's principles instructed in the OT. The Jews were instructed to govern themselves according to God's law period. No pagan co-mingling was allowed! When the Jews found themselves enslaved to a pagan nation they didn't try and blend in then become apart of the pagan system. They never thought they could continue in a perpetual co-governing with the pagans. They where absolutists by God's command, they could not capitulate! This is how the first century church was eventually able to Christianize the world. Separation not capitulation is the solution. We (Christians) give no light to draw men by because we have thrown our light in the bonfire of the world and it has been consumed by it. Not until we form our own civil governing authority will we be able to give the world an alternative it is desperate to see. We will not be salt and light until we do. The OT saints new this. Nothing has changed in that regard. All this talk of change through the current humanistic political system is wood, hay and stubble.
One wonders if the reason so many argue for the position that getting involved in politics and commenting on political issues is not something which Christians should be involved with is that this is the easy (and cowardly) way out. It takes effort and hard work to combat the satanical world order so we simply pretend that we can't do anything so our consciences are not bothered by our inaction. True, we are in a spiritual battle, but that battle is played out on a physical earth with physical people and political entities.
Bravo Gary! One would think that the man who speaks about the "Wrath of Abandonment" would encourage Christians to become politically active. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x3WI9OWAL4&feature=related
favorite quote from the video: "people think the only reason I should come to Christ is that when I die I can go to heaven..." "christian" ghetto escapist worldview wants you to "accept Jesus into your heart" and then just either a) preach Jesus to others and/or b) wait to die. Don't believe it. You were called to till the garden and cultivate it. That involves government and everything else as well. George
Not a way to advance His kingdom? The Founding Fathers beg to differ. "Our forefathers in the faith did not retreat from involvement in society and politics. They did not turn civil government, the making, enforcement, and adjudication of laws, over to Satan and those who serve him. They did not surrender the ministry of civil government to those who are in rebellion against God. Instead, they sought to base civil government and law upon the truth. They understood that God is the Lord of history who rules the lives of nations by His divine providence, and that He is in authority over our nation as well over all others. They knew that our nation’s civil government and law must be based upon God’s laws and principles of justice if we are to enjoy His blessings upon our land and people. They comprehended that all men are sinners, and that man’s sinful nature has particularly destructive consequences when it is allowed to vent itself through the power of civil government. They understood that true religion (Christianity), virtue, and liberty are inseparately united, and that liberty cannot long be perserved in the absence of virtue among the people and their representative." Dr. Archie Jones: Foreward to "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the US"
Matthew, bottom line, it doesn't matter what the framers did or did not claim they were. It's their actions and legislation that matters. The only standard by which everything (including today's government and politicians and yesterday's framers and Constitution) must be judged is Yahweh's morality as found in His perfect laws and altogether righteous judgments (Psalm 19:7-9). Please check out "Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective" at http://www.missiontoisrael.org/blvc-index.php, providing thirty-seven online chapters (Lord willing, to be published 2012) in which you will find every article and amendment examined by Yahweh's commandments, statutes and judgments. I hope it proves helpful.
I'm not sure where you received your information on the Founders being Deists and Unitarians Matthew, but Unitarians and Deists played a VERY minute role in the founding of our Christian nation. http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
Matthew, You've noticed what many I hope are waking up to, that true biblical Christianity never found its way into the US Constitution or the hearts of the majority of our founders. And if some are convinced it was, it's articulation was so poor that it had no hope of any lasting effect. If the founders had taken their ques from the Westminster Divines, and others, then we may have had documents with true Christian substance. But we don't, and that's a fact! What we ended up with is a neo or modified Christian form of government at best, which is really just another form of humanism.
Read some AV books on the Founding Fathers RJ, our laws were based on Biblical principles. We Christians allowed secular humanists to change it, it's time we take it back.
I believe that the info you present is solid, but it's not complete. For example, today many Catholics are involved in politics, but they act based on the values of secular humanism, not Catholicism (e.g. the current governor of New York). The point I'm making is that some of these guys might have attended a church, but a simple examination would have shown that they were only wearing the clothing of sheep (see documentary: THE HIDDEN FAITH OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS, Christian J. Pinto). Many of the most prominent men (e.g. Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine) we honor today were a bunch of anti-Christs (i.e. deniers of Christ's God-man nature). My main point is that if RJ Cain, Gary DeMar and I sat down and made a Constitution (despite different denominational backgrounds), we could make one that was undeniably Christian. For example, we could footnote the articles to the relevant portions of Scripture or we could state at the start of the document that Christ was the Lord of the nation. But it begs a more important question, would a Christian really violate Romans 13 and rebel against the ruling authority? The British crown was the rightful ruler of these subjects and the arguments I hear Christians make (these days) that attempt to justify the rebellion are no more than casuistry and sophistry.
Seattle, read "Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution" at http://www.missiontoisrael.org/articles.php and you will discover this simply is not true. Many at AV have and are coming to understand this.
Matthew, I believe your comments are right-on, except for the one regarding Romans 13. I've written book "Christian Duty Under Corrupt Government: A Revolutionary Commentary on Romans 13:1-7." See http://www.missiontoisrael.org/books-summary.php#anchor2. I would be pleased to send you a complimentary copy of you. If interested, from our Website, find the contact button and email me note with your name and address and I will get one right off to you.
Sorry, I forgot one more thing. The fact that many of these men were Freemasons is also suspect. Our God doesn't allow blending religions. One can't serve the Christian God and the Grand Architect of the Universe or Supreme Architect of the Universe. Joining a fraternity that is broadly ecumenical, inter-religious in nature is a big "no-no" in the Christian faith.
I'm familiar with the link Ted. Make your case; here's mine: http://americanvision.org/1663/law-colonial-america/ (I'll stick with what the boss of AV says).
While Chris Pinto has done good work in the past (The Kinsey Syndrome), he's way off mark with his conspiratorial documentary on the Founding Fathers (I've debated on this subject before). AV can supply you with a library of books on how the Founding Fathers were men of faith and legislated as such ("The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States" is a good start. Dr. Archie P. Jones foreward to the book talks about the FF's and Romans 13). I'll supply you with a couple of websites (of the dozens that I have) that show the same: "Yes, Chris Rodda, Our Constitution Is Based on the Book of Deuteronomy" http://ourfoundingtruth.blogspot.com/2010/07/yes-chris-rodda-our-constitution-is.html THE INCORPORATION OF DIVINE LAW INTO AMERICAN COLONIAL LAW http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=87 Regarding Freemasonry: I can't think of many organizations that REQUIRE it's members to believe in God, and deny membership if you're an atheist. http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/rawal.html
Gary North: the last half of his book "Political Polytheism." Personal conversations with Joel McDurman and Jerry Johnson. Regardless, what these men, Gary DeMar, or you or me think is not what's important. I would hope you would agree that the only standard by which everything must be judged is Yahweh's morality as found in commandments, statutes, and judgments, and by that standard the Constitution fails as either a Biblical or Christian document.
Also, my problem isn't that the Masons require belief in a god. My problem with the Masons is that their Grand Architect of the Universe is not the God of the Scriptures. Many people believe in a god, but how does that help them if they deny the God that is established in the Scriptures?
Are you talking about the same Gary North that is friends (and actually worked for) Libertarian/moral relativist/mentally deranged congressman Ron Paul? I see that Joel McD also admires Paul. http://americanvision.org/2413/ron-pauls-free-home-school-curriculum/ The evidence (not opinions) is out there that the Founding Fathers were men of faith, and founded this country under God's Word. Some people are too blind to see that. http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755
The same Gary North and Joel McDurmon closely associated with Gary DeMar. Your response is a bait and switch tactic. I'm not fan of Ron Paul either, but that is an unrelated subject, for another time. Stay on point, you asked me for AV associated who felt the same ab out the Constitution. Seattle, you are absolutely correct: the *founding* fathers (of the 17th century) were men of faith, demonstrated by their actions (for example, by the Colonial charters which were all but based exclusively upon the laws of Yahweh - unlike the constitutional framers, who nowhere cited or even made reference to Yahweh's morality as found in His laws, let alone Yahweh or Christ in the Constitution or the Federalist Papers. Christian-sounding quotations are not enough to prove anything about the framers, Clinton, Obama, or you or me - Matthew 7:21-23, etc.