Articles Mother-of-harlots

Published on December 31st, 2010 | by Dr. Joel McDurmon


Jerusalem, Mother of Harlots

Jesus told his listeners, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt. 21:43). For many people, this verse provides the heart of “replacement theology”—the idea that the Christian Church has replaced the old physical nation of Israel as God’s chosen people and priestly nation (1 Pet. 2:9–10, et al).

Without requiring the use of the label “replacement,” this is essentially what the verse teaches. It does not mean that Jewish people can never again taste of God’s grace, it simply means that the Old Jewish way of God’s witness and work on earth—the Old Testament Temple ritual system—was being abolished. It was being abolished because it was never meant to be permanent, but only a symbol that pointed to the reality of Jesus Christ, the true Temple, the true Emanuel. Those Jews who rejected the true Temple and insisted on clinging to the Old Testament traditions were thereby committing idolatry just as grossly as any pagan ritual. The Kingdom had moved on to its greater fulfillment. Those who refused to embrace the fulfillment found themselves bereft of the true kingdom—it would be taken from them, and given to the disciples of the true and faithful people of God.

Jesus denounced the teachers of the Old tradition which led the way in opposing Him. These were the Pharisees, and Christ’s denunciation of them appears in Matthew 23 among other places. It extends to the whole of the physical city of Jerusalem of which they were representatives in disbelief. Jesus concluded with the prediction that Jerusalem would fall because she was responsible for “all the righteous blood shed upon earth” and that she was “the city that kills the prophets” (Matt. 23:35, 37).

Mystery Babylon

From this sweeping condemnation we can learn that the city called “Babylon” in Revelation 17 and 18 is not the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar, but Jerusalem called Babylon because she had corrupted herself and become like that ancient pagan Empire:

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet [colors of the chief priest and the Temple; Ex. 25–28; 38–39], and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations” (Rev. 17:4–5).

And how do we know this blasphemous Babylonian “mystery” whore is indeed Jerusalem? Because she is pronounced guilty of the exclusive crime which Jesus earlier pinned on Jerusalem:

And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.… Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more.… And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth (Rev. 17:6, 18:21, 24).

It is not possible that two cities can both be guilty of a crime of which only one party could be guilty—killing all the prophets and all who have been slain in the earth. Jesus clearly attributed this crime to Jerusalem in Matthew 23; so we must conclude that here in Revelation, “Babylon” is a “name of mystery” because it symbolizes what Jerusalem had become.

Thus, it is highly likely that when Peter wrote his first epistle from “Babylon” (1 Pet. 5:13), he was literally writing from Jerusalem, which he had by then already condemned “in these last times” (1 Pet. 1:20) as Babylon. Peter was, after all, an apostle to the Circumcision as Paul said (Gal. 2:7).

It was not uncommon practice in that window between Christ’s ascension and Jerusalem’s destruction that the New Testament writers symbolized Jerusalem with the names of the great enemies of God’s people down through the ages. Thus, Revelation speaks of “the great city” where the “Lord was crucified”—obviously Jerusalem—“that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt” (Rev. 11:8).

Some would complain that interpreting the Great Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 as Jerusalem is anti-Semitic. This is ad hominem nonsense. Besides, how anti-Semitic was it of John! Calling Jerusalem “Sodom” and “Egypt” instead of praying for her peace as dispensationalists demand we do. The nerve of him.

Thus it is understandable when Paul compares the false teachers creeping in the church to Pharaoh’s magicians (2 Tim. 3:8–9). Likewise, Matthew 2 presents Jesus as the New Israel fleeing from the new Pharaoh who kills all the male babies. Except the roles are reversed: Jesus’ family has to flee into Egypt in order to avoid this new Pharaoh, who is Herod; and the children killed are not Egyptian, they are Jewish. Lesson: Old Israel has become like Egypt, the persecutor of God’s people, and she shall suffer the plague of Egypt, while Jesus is the true Israel.

Keep in mind, it was Herod who then ruled Jerusalem and who had rebuilt the Temple at which the Jews then sacrificed. Once Jesus appeared on the scene as the Final Sacrifice, the sacrifices at the Temple became idolatrous and pagan. It was then rejecting God to continue that system. It was, in fact, to commit the abomination of desolation, because it was an idolatrous sacrifice in the Temple which caused God’s presence to leave that House desolate. Indeed, God’s presence would forever leave that Temple to dwell in the New Temple, His People. This occurred on the day of Pentecost. Within a generation, the idolatrous, adulterous nation—the great whore temple in Jerusalem—suffered a final blow from God. It was destroyed into oblivion.

Thus it is further understandable that the inspired writers would refer to their persecutors and false brethren in their Church as “them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9).


Modern day Christians simply do not understand that when they demand the land of Israel for the Old Jewish people so that they may rebuild a Temple and resume sacrifices, they are praying for the rankest and vilest of idolatries to occur. God destroyed that temple for that very reason in AD 70. Why would he now change and desire it to be rebuilt?

You may think that since God did this once before, sending His people into exile with their temple destroyed behind them, then He will do the same again—have them return to rebuild the temple. But this time was different. This time the True Temple came as the rebuilt (resurrected) temple. This time there would be no bricks and mortar, stones cut out with hands. The Old Jewish people were not merely exiled from their kingdom someday to return. No. This time, the kingdom was taken from them and given to the true nation.

Christ created a new bride. Why would Christ desire to return to the whore he has cast aside and divorced when He has a pristine Bride descending from heaven, uncorrupted by idolatry? He didn’t. He left that whore riding her patron, the beast of Rome. And the great mother of harlots suffered the judgment of her whoredom. She was divorced and disinherited. The inheritance now belongs to the Bride.

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About the Author

Dr. Joel McDurmon

Joel McDurmon, Ph.D. in Theology from Pretoria University, is the Director of Research for American Vision. He has authored seven books and also serves as a lecturer and regular contributor to the American Vision website. He joined American Vision's staff in the June of 2008. Joel and his wife and four sons live in Dallas, Georgia.

35 Responses to Jerusalem, Mother of Harlots

  1. Paul Borner says:

    All religions of man are part of the Great Whole. Jesus is the Father that is True.

  2. ethan says:

    But how can Israel be sitting on seven hills (or mountains) (Rev. 17:9)? Why can’t the Babylon be Rome or even the Roman Catholic Church?

    • Marsha Itro says:

      But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was, as was Rome, also reckoned to be the “City of Seven Hills.” This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that “Jerusalem is situated on seven hills” (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those “seven hills” are easy to identify.
      If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:

      The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],

      The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],

      The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the “Mount of Corruption” or “Mount of Offence” [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).

      On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south “Mount Zion” [Hill Four] (the original “Mount Zion” and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),

      The “Ophel Mount” [Hill Five],

      To the north of that the “Rock” around which “Fort Antonia” was built [Hill Six],

      And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new “Mount Zion.”

  3. alex alexander says:

    This is a very late post. But, so what…
    Does anyone remember the interview with Princess Di when she said: “There are three people in this marriage.”?
    She meant: “Charles”; “Princess Di”, and a certain “Camilla.”
    Well, when it comes to (badly misunderstood) New Testament theology, it seems to me that there appears to be “three people in this marriage”.
    Whom might they be?
    1. The Bridegroom. Christ.
    2. The Bride of Christ. The Church.
    3. And then there’s the tricky problem of… the gatecrasher… “Israel”; “the Chosen People”; “the apple of God’s eye”; etc, etc.
    But, as I read my Bible, there is only one betrothed, one bride of Christ. Or what? Are we really to endorse theological polygamy?
    1. What’s a “Jew”?
    2. Are the occupants of modern Israel biblical “Jews” in the same terms that the Bible describes “Jews”? (ie: are they practising biblical “Judaism”? And if they are – which they are not – wouldn’t it be a denial of the Gospel?).
    3. Does modern political Israel (50% non-Jewish; huge concrete wall splitting it into ethnic halves; shockingly secular/pagan/humanistic/socialistic/racist state) in any way resemble a biblically “Jewish” society?
    Please, don’t make me larf…
    Alex A, UK

  4. Matt says:

    Trying to figure out the “Mystery Babylon” is always tricky.*

    “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations”

    So it’s the mother of prostitutes. What does that mean? It needs to birth a series of somethings and send them on their way. What exactly is Jerusalem birthing?

    There is another kingdom, or city if you will, that is very wealthy. It spawns something very evil all around the world. It does this today. This kingdom is called Saudi Arabia and the city is called Riyadh. The evil thing is Islam.

    Anything that Jerusalem has done pales in comparison to the evil of Saudi Arabia and Islam. Allah says get down and submit. He forces us to submit because he is an impostor.

  5. Harmon Gottlieb says:

    Romans 11 is no ‘proof-chapter’ for the futuristic restoration of an Israel/Jerusalem defined by ethnicity. The wondrous truth presented there is about Jews being saved at the time of Paul’s writing: “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace (V. 11).”

    Paul’s tree analogy, moreover, describes a single, Jewish, olive tree bearing both natural and grafted, Gentile branches, all attached to Christ Jesus. He is not forecasting a separate, all-Jewish, Gentile-free olive tree that will suddenly come to geo-political life in 1948: “how much more shall these [Jews], which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree (v. 24).” The Israel of God, accordingly, is inhabited by blood-purchased Jews and Gentiles in an ever-ongoing work of the Holy Spirit that continues into 2011.

    Therefore, the “all Israel” of v. 26 refers to Christian Jews being saved into the “church of the living God,” not to some end-time, ethno-national, revivification. The “children of promise” are Jewish and Gentile identities submerged in Christ Jesus: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel (Romans 9:6),” and “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed (Romans 9:8).”

    The termination of geo-physical Jerusalem, as a holy, worship nucleus, is foretold in the Lord’s comments to the Samaritan woman at Sychar well:

    “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him (John 4:21-23).”

    Paul writes, then, of the “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage,” and contrasts it with the “Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all (Galatians 4:22-31).” That Jerusalem is occupied only by “children of promise” who are “born after the spirit,” not “after the flesh.”

    His exhortation to Roman Christians confirms the end of ethnic exclusivity: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” An Israel/Jerusalem populated by Jews without “the spirit of Christ” is the ultimate, anti-Christian abomination scorned in Revelation 3:9:

    “Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”

    • Frank says:

      “His exhortation to Roman Christians confirms the end of ethnic exclusivity: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” An Israel/Jerusalem populated by Jews without “the spirit of Christ” is the ultimate, anti-Christian abomination scorned in Revelation 3:9:”

      You are forgetting about God’s promise to Abraham, which is eternal in nature. God made a covenant “between me and thee forever.” Either God meant forever, or He did not. Yes, the Jews have been disobedient literally for centuries in denying Christ, but they will be restored in a total and comprehensive manner at the Second Coming. This is why Paul was very clear on the subject in Romans 11, to make sure that our liberty in Christ does not give reason to be boastful:
      Romans 11:31-34
      31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

      32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

      33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

      34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

      Note verse 32. It refers that God, “hath concluded them (Jews) all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”

      • Harmon Gottlieb says:

        You are forgetting that God’s promise to Abraham was eternal in nature because it encompassed His perfect work in Christ Jesus. Paul says nothing of a racial Israel entitled to a future, land-based blessing, or of God’s hidebound obligation to everyone with a Jewish bloodline. However, he does proclaim, unambiguously, that the promise to Abraham is Christ-based and includes Gentiles:

        Galatians 3: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

        Rapturist prestidigitation uses 2 Thessalonians 2:7 to remove the Holy Spirit of our triune God from earth (a theological absurdity), in order that its Israel (insensible to the Galatian promise) can be ‘carnalized away’ into a millennialized trophy of Jewish supremacy.

        Consequently, the enthusiasts who venerate the United Nations Organization’s nation-creation trick in 1948 as a “miracle” from God never examine the un-miraculous intrigues moving the history of that secular machination, nor do they apprehend the scriptures linking the finished work of Christ with the terminating of ethnic-cultic Israel (Hebrews 1:1-3). That postwar political “miracle” is, in fact, an unspeakable monstrosity which functions only as an institutional denial of Christ’s words to His Father: “I have glorified thee on earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (John 17:4).”

        The dispensationalist mantra, “God is not finished with Israel,” therefore, is a brazen, ideologically motivated slur that says the promises of God to Israel were not fulfilled in Christ Jesus’ perfect life, loving sacrificial death, and triumphant resurrection. Hence, the Gospel-denying root of the statement. “God is not going to make Himself a liar by breaking His promises to Abraham,” as if those promises have been realized in the lie of the anti-Christian state of Israel–as if Christ Jesus, the King, the Saviour and the High Priest of Israel had not fulfilled every one of those promises.

        God was finished with ethnic Israel 2000 years ago. Jews who believe in Him today have acknowledged that glorious fact and have become living members of His Body, the Church.

        The promise of God to Abraham originates and terminates only in Christ Jesus. The dispensationalisms that tinker with that blessed reality are accursed fictions.

        • Frank says:

          I think you are directing to much vitriol toward the Jews. Everything you stated in your post does not explain away Romans chapter 11 and what is stated in Ezekiel 37-40.

          I would be careful to make the statement, “God is finished with Israel”, especially when Ezekiel and Paul say otherwise.

          I would be careful when you say things like, “Hence, the Gospel-denying root of the statement. “God is not going to make Himself a liar by breaking His promises to Abraham,” as if those promises have been realized in the lie of the anti-Christian state of Israel.” Remember, nations leaders are raised up and thrown down by God’s will. Are you denying the “dry bones” prophecy in the O.T. ? Are you saying that Israel in 2011 does not exist according to God’s will and for His glorification? Are you saying that God is not going to protect and save His chosen people-the Jews- when they are surrounded by their sworn enemies in Ezekiel 38? and 39?

          Ezekiel 39:
          27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations,
          28 then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer.
          29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”

          God has not “poured out His Spirit on the house of Israel”, yet. This is a future event.

          I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for my sins I have and will commit on this earth. So insulting me by saying I am a “gospel denier” is not only false, but is something you will have to answer for at the Judgment Seat.

          I think if you would throw aside your hatred of the Jews for a short time, you would see that not only is God not finished with Israel, He is not finished with Israel for eternity and has a glorious plan to completely restore them when they confess Christ.

        • Frank says:

          Also, let us not forget the prophecy that is in Zechariah 12:

          1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

          2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

          3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

          4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

          5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

          6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

          7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

          8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

          9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

          10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

          Note that this also confirms what is in Romans chapter 11. The Jews at the Second Coming will realize that Christ is Messiah and recognize Him as such. Verse 10 refers to Christ in He is the one that “they have pierced”.

          Zechariah 13 continues:

          6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

          7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

          8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

          9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

          “they shall call on my name” refers to Christ. Verse 6 also refers to Christ, “What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.”

        • Harmon Gottlieb says:

          Nothing in my posts can be shown to be vitriolic or hateful toward Jews. There is, however, a hostile rejection of the dispensational ideology (used to twist the scriptures in the preceding post) claiming ‘God is not finished with Israel’. The immediate, plain sense of God’s inerrant word is its final judge.

          “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
          Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Hebrews 1:1-3).”

          “Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (Acts 26:22,23).”

          “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
          He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life (1 John 5:11,12).”

          “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ (Colossians 2:8).”

        • Frank says:

          There is no “twisting of scriprtures”. You cannot explain away what is clearly stated in the Bible. Particularly Romans 11 (I will concentrate on that since it is in the N.T.) It clearly states that “all Israel shall be saved”.

          Are you denying the “Deliverer” is Christ ? If so, that is “twisting of Scripture” and putting the Son of God in a box.

        • Harmon Gottlieb says:

          To “concentrate” on Romans 11 will show “all Israel” to consist of individuals being saved at the time of Paul’s writing, “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Concentrating on Romans 11 (and the Christ-centered context of the entire letter) will demolish the dispensational scripture-twisting of the phrase, “all Israel shall be saved.”

          • “All Israel” is explained by the earlier context of “all Israel” found in Romans 9:6: “…For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel,” Verse 8 goes on to establish that “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” In Galatians 4:8 Paul identifies Galatian Gentiles as “children of promise,’ showing that “all Israel” is not an ethnic universal.

          • “All Israel” consists of a single olive tree bearing natural Jewish and engrafted Gentile branches—it is not the independent, future, Jewish-only, olive tree planted by dispensational ideology: ”For if thou [Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these [Jews], which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

          • “All Israel” is a people foreknown by God: ”God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.” They are “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ (1Peter 1:2),” and they immediately become members of the Body of Christ, “the Church of the living God.” The “all,” therefore, are not a non-Church, nationalist entity waiting to be liberated by some dispensationalist timetable.

          • “All Israel” has a living, dynamic, present tense, and enjoys ongoing salvation: “If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?” Paul, obviously, is not predicting the sudden end of a two millennia-long, universal Jewish unbelief.

          • “All Israel” can only be delivered by the one-time, atonement already accomplished by Christ Jesus, “For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” Consequently, “Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31),” “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13,14).”

          Scripture defeats all attempts to imprison the glorious work of Christ Jesus for “all Israel” in a futuristic, ethno-nationalist, dispensational box that is infernally “unfinished.”

        • Frank says:

          There is no way that you or anyone else can say that the “fulness of the Gentiles” had come in when Paul wrote this in Romans 11:

          25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

          26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

          He had just begun preaching/teaching the Gospel to the Gentiles !

        • Harmon Gottlieb says:

          Again, you scuttle away from what Romans 11 can, and does, say– that Jews were being saved when Paul wrote the letter (Romans 11:5,14,31) because the promise of a Deliverer for Israel (vs. 26,27) had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus (Acts 5:31).

          Consider the Lord’s response to the Emmaus travelers, “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory (Luke 24:25,26).” Then provide us with a single scripture stating the Lord Jesus would finish His appointed mission to redeem “the Israel of God” at some point in the dispensational future? If you can’t, then this thread has ended.

        • Frank says:

          I already did, you just refuse to see past your spiritual blindness in this matter. Unfortunately, you will end up deceived by the anti-Christ and his “miracles” if those events occur in your lifetime.

      • Marsha Itro says:

        The Bible needs to be read as a whole if you expect to understand it.
        “Now the Lord had said to Abram: Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” {Gen. 12:1-3} As you can see GOD’s WORD says, “all the families of the earth shall be blessed NOT Israel that didn’t even exist at that time..
        ” How are “all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”? Through JESUS the Christ, Abraham’s SEED. How do we know this? Because GOD’S WORD tells us so. .” “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is
        neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye are Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:26-29 Let me repeat the last part of thatScripturee, “And if ye are Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” I didn’t say it God did. I didn’t twist it it is right from the Bible. You have the free will to believe God or what you have been taught by men. I didn’t tell you not to support Israel if you wish to just don’t tell people they will come under God’sjudgmentt if they don’t because that is “another Gospel”. As far as the Jewish people being God’s people yes, they were. Now God has left them desolate and taken the Kingdom from them and given it to others because of their continued disobedience. Matt 23: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE.” Jesus said to the chief priests and elders of the Jewish people: “I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it” (Matthew 21:43).
        Jesus said to His disciples: “Fear not, little flock, for it is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32). This is GOD speaking not me. God has ONE plan for the Jewish people, whether they live in the nation called Israel or anywhere else in the world, and it is the Same plan God has for you, me, and all people. The plan is called JESUS. To tell any ethnic group anything else, as John Hagee has, is to sentence them to damnation.

  6. Rita says:

    Can Joel respond to Frank’s comments. I am really struggling with these issues. Everyones arguments make sense when read alone. All the related scripture is not addresses in EACH argument, so I keep having more questions, such as 2 thess 2:3-4 who is the man of sin (Jerusalem? why?); the son of perdition? the coming of the lawless one? 2 thess 2:7 who is ‘he’ who now restrains; “he” is taken out of the way??? Who is “he”?

    • Frank says:

      The “man of sin” is the same man as the “son of perdition” and that is the future anti-Christ. “He who restrains” is the Holy Ghost.

      • Kerry says:

        The man of sin would have been a contemporary of Paul, John, and Peter. This all happened in the first century. The Anti-Christ/s were already present at that time, and John said this is why it is the last hour (then) not now. The Anti-Christs were once with them that believed, and then did not stay with the believers. They either went back to Judaism and the Temple practices, or if they were proselytes, went back to pagan idolatry.

        Either way, it was a first century event. It happened during the time of the 2nd temple.

  7. Meredith says:


    So what if the Jews have their ‘stuff’ ready? That proves nothing.

    As to God’s promises to Abraham, Jesus is the promised Seed and Christians are His brothers. You really should try reading Hebrews. A new temple is NOT required by God, the OT sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ’s sacrifice, once for all.

    • Frank says:

      Romans chapter 11? Anyone?

    • Frank says:

      Sorry for the double post…

      Straight from Romans chapter 11:

      25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

      26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

      27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

      • D.Davis says:

        The Redeemer came to Zion two thousand years ago and established God’s new covenant with those in Zion that turned from transgressions.Isaiah 20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD. 21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever,” says the LORD. Not only was the new covenant made with Jews that accepted Christ it was also made with the gentiles that accepted Christ as their redeemer.Hebrews 9:28 So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

        Douay-Rheims Bible

    • Frank says:

      As for the 3rd temple, we must make sure to not take verses out of context. 2 Thessalonians 2:
      1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

      2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

      3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

      6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

      7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

      Notice that in verse 7, this refers to the Holy Spirit being taken out of the earth at the rapture of the church. Then things will begin to be, let’s say, interesting. Once the restrainer is taken away, evil will essentially have free reign for the Tribulation period. We must remember, the vast majority of the world will see the Anti-Christ as God. How can he “sit in the temple of God” unless there is a temple? He will have the power to deceive with his “miracles” that will be seen by everyone, and they will be real.

      • Kerry says:


        In verse 4, what temple do you think those who read this letter from Paul in the first century would have thought would be defiled? Would they have thought it applied to a future third temple or some future generation? How can someone/something be restrained if it is not already at work at the time of this letter?

        You cannot take this letter and apply it’s timing and context to our generation. The warning would not have made sense to those who first read it. This text applies to the second temple and the people of that generation.

        • Frank says:

          I think you are making the mistake of taking verse 4 out of context. There had been no “falling away” in 50-55 A.D. as there is now. And the “son of perdition” has not been revealed yet.

  8. Frank says:

    If there is not going to be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, then why do the Jews already have most of the things they need to rebuild it already made and waiting?

    God is not going to make Himself a liar by breaking His promises to Abraham. The Jews have never been permanently cast off. People that believe this lie will be open to the coming deceptions by the Anti-Christ predicted in the Old and New Testaments.

  9. john cummins says:

    nor I, Johnny

  10. John says:

    Pure nonsense.

  11. Cedric Klein says:

    As a collector of both “Revelation” & JW literature, let’s give credit where credit is due. The picture of The Whore of Babylon astride the Beast is from the JW book “Revelation- Its Grand Climax at Hand”
    (which now that I’ve written it out strikes me as a very… unfortunate title.)

  12. Very nice. More emphasis at the end on the impossibility of any prophetic meaning of a rebuilt temple might help. It seems once people are faced with Christ being that final rebuilt temple, they are forced to really rethink what they are saying about a physical one.

  13. Johnny says:

    “Babylon” looks like a Vargas girl.

    Uh, not that I would know.

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