According the the Proposition 8 decision, religion can no longer be considered when determining whether a sexual practice is morally and legally wrong. But this creates a few problems. When you take away religious considerations, there are quite a few evils left open for debate. For instance, apart from religious morality, how can you argue that rape is morally or legally wrong? If you maintain an atheistic, evolutionary worldview, rape is a natural, even necessary, part of human evolution.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 10:06 — 11.6MB) | Embed
Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandsons, Calvin and Paul. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).
I don't know about "rape". We don't even have anything in the Texas Penal Code about "rape". We do have 2 offenses called Sexual Assault and Aggravated Sexual Assault. Title 5, Chapter 22 of the code cover assaultive offenses included in which are Sexual Assault and Aggravated Sexual Assault. (Sexual offences are covered in Title 5, Chapter 21) These are assaults. What makes them "sexual" is the fact that they involve the anus, genitals or mouth of either the victim or the assailant or both. "Aggravated" comes into play when the assailant causes or attempts to cause death or serious bodily injury to the victim or by acts or words places the victim in fear that death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping will be imminently inflicted upon them.
Nothing anywhere in Chapter 22 needs any sort of religious context, Mr. Demar. Assault is assault quite apart from religion. No society can long survive which does not protect its members. The punishment for any offense if for society to set based upon its own values. Again, a society that does not protect its members cannot long survive.
If society's members are disarmed then jungle law will prevail. Armed citizens can take responsibility for their own protection – and the protection of others. I do not know about any other state, but in Texas we may use force -including deadly force – to protect ourselves or another from the commission (or attempted commission) of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
Again, where in this is religion needed? From where I sit, nine of the commandments of the decalogue provide an excellent set of guidelines for a properly functioning society – with or without a God in the mix. Even the first is useful to remind individuals that they are not the pinnacle of creation. I am convinced that the biggest problem in society today is the mistaken idea that the rotational axis of the universe (or at least our own corner of it) passes through their body.
Bad Cyborg X%er
"People who jump to conclusions seldom stick the landing."
Very manipulative writing Mr. Demar. You suggest that there is no moral argument against rape for athiests. The truth is that working for the good of all life, rather than religious goals actually opens up much more morality to society.
P.S. The testemant of Jesus talks about the evils of being rich much more than the evils of homosexualty. Are you a good Christian or do you have wealth?
Where does Jesus ever speak of the "evils of being rich"? He often spoke about wealth being a stumbling block, but never about it being "evil."
But aside from that, you are still missing the larger point. Gary's argument is that in order for you to claim anything is "good" or "moral" you have to steal these concepts from the Christian worldview. Atheism cannot provide an "ought" or "should" because atheism (as most atheists constantly remind us) is not a positive belief system, but a negative one. In other words, atheism doesn't posit or claim ANYTHING beyond disbelieving that an omnipotent, all-powerful, Creator God exists. Atheism doesn't claim to explain the world or how it SHOULD BE, only how it IS. On this basis, and this is the point Gary is making, you have no logical grounds for claiming that one thing (e.g. non-violent, consensual, monogamous, marital sex) is "good," "better," or "more moral" than another (e.g. violent rape).
Seems to me that using the testimony of the evolutionists I could argue that polygamy and rape are advantageous for cultivating a stronger species more resilient to disease, etc. etc. As we know from Obama's speeches, it is very important that the individual relinquish his rights to benefit society and the collective. Rape just seems to me to be a logical, if extreme, ultimate end to this type of wrong headed thinking. The reason rape is wrong is because it violates the individual, who is made in GOD's image – whether you wish to believe this or not. Without this, what authority do you have to tell me what I can and can't do. I am just particles of stardust that happened by accident . . .
some of you still brought up the bible, just to piont that out. its legally and morally wrong because in essence, it is the same thing as assult and battery ; battery: the crime or tort of intentionally or recklessly causing offensive physical contact or bodily harm (as by striking or by administering a poison or drug) that is not consented to by the victim (sited from dictionary.com/ legal definition)
Wow you are messed up. The Golden Rule is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights, in which each individual has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others.
Rape infringes on this personal right. We are social animals. There are over 6 billion of us on this planet. Rape is not necessary.
Marriage License were set up so people could not have interracial marriages, and many argued that is was morally wrong for blacks and white to marry. Slavery is okay in the bible, so go back to that if you want to bring what is religiously moral and immoral back into US law.
I see you didn't bother to listen to the video. The speaker agrees that rape is wrong. But according to the evolutionists he quoted rape is a natural instinct in males that has evolved to further perpetuate the species by breeding many children via multiple mates. As such, rape was (according to them) at least at one time necessary for the survival and growth of the human race. As such, from an purely natural evolution based viewpoint it cannot be 'wrong' as it was neccessary for perpetuation of the species!
Of COURSE rape is WRONG! But it is WRONG because GOD says it is wrong, based on the worth of the INDIVIDUAL – even over society – because each individual is made in his image.
Now the court has ruled that right or wrong cannot be determined by God or religion. Then by who? The naturalists and evolutionists? We see what happens every day now with this viewpoint with Obama making laws for the 'greater good' of society – and people as a whole – no matter how it penalizes or effects the individual. We are heading in a direction where we may be able to justify ANY perversity or selfish desire if we can claim it is for "the good of society".
Also, after the 10 commandments were given slavery was never practiced by Israel! They had 'indentured servants' of peoples that they conquered in battles between their countries only (or for periods of time to pay back damages for crimes they committed as criminals, as Israel had no jails). This varied in time up to 7 years and cruelty or starvation to an indentured servant was punishable by death! After 7 years (or less depending on circumstances) the indentured servant would be freed automatically unless they specifically asked to remain as an indentured servant. But they had specific rights and obligations which were nothing compared to how slaves were treated in America. Israel never attacked any country to get slaves and it was, in fact, frowned upon.
Neither was it advocated in the new testiment. Some mistakenly abuse Paul's letter to Philemon to justify slavery, but Paul was about freeing people spiritually, not freeing Israel from Rome or fighting a battle for the physical freedom of slaves which would obscure his message of spiritual freedom. He left that for others to do once they had been freed spiritually. Which happened in England 1st and then in America! By people who read, loved and carried out scripture!
All:
Rather than commenting on what you THINK Gary is saying based on the title alone, how about actually watching the video and begin commenting on what he actually DID say. If you think he is arguing for the decriminalization of rape, you have severely missed the point…
Good Day to You:
The Old Testament of the Bible, the Torah, and the Qur’an, all three define the ban on homosexuality. All three major religious sects, Christian, Jewish, and Islam / Muslim, claim to stand opposed to homosexuality by the writings in their HOLY Books. Why then is homosexuality abounding and increasing World Wide? Scientifically, homosexuality is a non-compatibility issue between the male and / or the female individuals of the human species. In magnetism’s arena opposite poles attract and like poles repel. In the biological science arena of the 21st century, the homosexual establishment is stating that biological science is wrong and that homosexuality and lesbianism are acceptable facts. Does that mean that scientists for thousands of years are wrong? Ask yourself what has happened to civilizations that have disappeared over the millennium. Was their demise because of a real disease or was it because of a social incompatibility such as homosexuality?
Respectfully,
Paul M. Mrozinsky
Only a MAN could ask such a question!!!! Let that person consider being held down by force and having something foreign forced into his orifices, for no other reason than the attacker wants to do this.
Anyone who rapes, should have his testicles removed (without painkillers.)
Gay marriage is just a cover phrase for the official approval and acceptance of sodomy and other sick sexual practices.
Many who vote for gay marriage don't understand this fact. Instead they think they are talking about "equality".
Also, to have an openly gay judge , all on his own with no other judges, to rule on Prop 8 is like having the fox guard the hen house. He should have been recused from this case.
I did not think the act of rape could ever be thought of as a religious based act but rather an abusive assault against a person. How can that ever be misconstrued into a religious act? But, as I ask that question, I am reminded of all the ultra liberals in our government, in particular on the Supreme Court, that like to re-write our constitution to meet their needs and desires. So…. never mind. I can see how that vicous, criminal act can be determined to be religiously based. I’m only 50 but am seeing not only a financial but a moral bankruptcy ahead for all of us!
Yeah, lets tip-toe around the truth of how violent and disgusting and perverted it is.
You can sensor my words, but, nothing was sensored when I was raped and killed. Yes, almost killed, but, the person I was before the rape, died and I have not seen her since then. So, sensor what you like, but, rape has many other words to describe it that you don’t want to hear.
Also, I think this is coming to light, because of the Muslims…..they rape their women and think they have the right to do that….well – they do not. They are an evil and demonic sect that puts the man as God over everything and the woman is just a piece of meat to do with as you will.
It’s too bad they “edited for content by admin” above – it was the awful truth and very unpleasant to see the truth in words.
Basically, the comment I just posted – will not be posted – so – in other terms – I hope the people who are making these laws, or considering that rape is not criminal – I hope they get raped real soon and then lets see what their opinions are…..as a rape survivor…..I feel I have the right to tell you to shove it where the sun doesn't shine and I hope your mother or sister is never raped.
As a rape survivor – I say – the people that could even suggest that rape is not a crime or morally wrong….why don’t we tie you to a pole and have someone [edited for content by admin] and call you names and leave you for dead and well see how you feel about it then.
[while rape is an evil thing and an abomination, please don't fill comments with foul language - admin]
I see you didn't bother to listen to the video. The speaker agrees that rape is wrong. But according to the evolutionists he quoted rape is a natural instinct in males that has evolved to further perpetuate the species by breeding many children via multiple mates. As such, rape was (according to them) at least at one time necessary for the survival and growth of the human race. As such, from an purely natural evolution based viewpoint it cannot be 'wrong' as it was neccessary for perpetuation of the species!
Of COURSE rape is WRONG! But it is WRONG because GOD says it is wrong, based on the worth of the INDIVIDUAL – even over society – because each individual is made in his image.
Now the court has ruled that right or wrong cannot be determined by God or religion. Then by who? The naturalists and evolutionists? We see what happens every day now with this viewpoint with Obama making laws for the 'greater good' of society – and people as a whole – no matter how it penalizes or effects the individual. We are heading in a direction where we may be able to justify ANY perversity or selfish desire if we can claim it is for "the good of society".
Rape is wrong and it is a crime of punishment. However, does god exist for this issue about rape is morality right or wrong? All we can say is that, it’s wrong for the simply fact that humans should and should not harm another person, it is just morality wrong. Even though people out there have no compassion and they do it anyways for the simply reason of pleasure and enjoyment. Furthermore, their is no such thing as GOD or Supreme Being, we make our own laws for what is morality right and wrong. Spiritual interaction is nothing but a scam for believing in someone’s word of mouth. We as human don’t need to believe in all the religious crap but only believe in ourselves and what we do in life. We don’t need someone telling us what is right and wrong, we know what our moral values are. However, rape is WRONG.
Rape is the same as robbery, stealing, kidnapping, how can it not be a crime. The emotional & psychological stress that a person will suffer is part of the crime. This should not even be an issue to decide. More liberal, socialist bull crap. No one should be allowed to be able to force another person to do anything they don't want to do. Does common sence still exist?
what screwball came up w/ such a stupid question ? I can't believe there is time and money being spent on such a thing ! although not much surprises me now days . whether it is in the Bible or not has nothing to do w/ it being a crime . when someone is raped it is an attack on a person .
I can't believe it. You are spending time determining if rape is wrong. Ask someone who has been raped.
The PRIMARY concern regarding this issue is child marriage (lifetime rape) and molestation. When you take away the MODERN Western traditional Judeo-Christian boundaries of marriage, then you open up the prospect of arranged marriage, forced marriage, child marriage, polygamy, etc., being first acceptable and then legal.
I believe that this issue is far more tied into Islam than people realize. Despite being ostensibly anti-gay, Islam and ordinary Muslims practice extensive homosexuality starting with the prophet Mohammed and continuing into present day Afghanistan (google Dancing Boys of Afghanistan) and elsewhere in the Muslim world. Anyway, the Muslim world is anti-romantic love and pro-forced marriage, pro-pedophilia, and pro-polygamy (all values again starting with the prophet Mohammed). The attempt to devalue the MODERN Western traditional Judeo-Christian boundaries of marriage is actually an attempt to start to legitimize the ANCIENT Eastern Islamic concept of marriage as legalized SLAVERY of women (starting as very young girls) and their children who are totally owned and controlled by their husbands and greater Islamic community.
Note that Islamic Sharia Law makes it totally IMPOSSIBLE for women and children to "prove" rape or molestation – making a poignant counterpoint to Gary's question, "Should rape be illegal?" Islam and Sharia Law has definitely stated, "No!" as the legal, social and moral answer to Gary's question.